Loss

Who are some of the best babyfaces you've seen throughout your wrestling-watching career? What made them great in your eyes and what are their best performances (meaning cite examples)? I'll chime in once I'm not at work and this thread gets going, but I think this could be interesting.

Truthfully, I don't think non-fans care enough to have such a passionate opinion. Rome has the power to reach a lot of people. A little humanity is expected.

I'm not watching the show, but it turns out they're using clever methods to actually get Edge over, teasing a Michaels/Benjamin feud and even exercising storyline continuity by referencing things Bischoff has done over the past 10+ years. What the hell happened to them?

I agree that Benoit's match with Batista played a major role in getting him over. I'm also curious, however, if Rudo is referring only to current-day Booker T or if he's referring to the entirety of his career. Either way, not long before Christian left, he carried Booker to a nice little match, so while he has slipped, he's still far from being the worst on the roster.

I was a huge WCCW fan as well, but the time I really got into it, unfortunately, was the time Memphis basically took over the territory. And I missed the glory days as they were happening and instead had to rely on the afternoon Legends programs, which were of much older footage. It's surreal watching old WCCW footage now, since everyone except Michael Hayes, Jimmy Garvin and Kevin Von Erich is dead for the most part. Adams. Gino. The rest of the Von Erichs, including Fritz. Terry Gordy. Sunshine, the first female valet ever, was manic depressive and eventually had to get out of the business because she had severe mental problems. And it's weird, and sad, and telling, how they were on top of the world from 1982-1985, and they fell so quickly. I guess the lesson is that promotions should never rest on their laurels, but more than that, there's a lot to be said about the underbelly of wrestling at a very extreme level in WCCW.

Plenty of people have had good matches with Booker T.

The magic of the Joe/Punk series was that it was the closest thing to an NWA world title match in the 00s I've seen, with the Les Thatcher belt presentation at the beginning, the emphasis on holds, and the hometown hero challenging and pushing the established champ to the limit, despite not appearing to have a legitimate chance of winning under normal circumstances.

I agree with your sentiment, but I don't know if I agree with the vocabulary you used or not. We may just be arguing semantics, but I think a match sucks if it is unable to generate any kind of emotion from the viewer, since that's the goal being worked toward. Some people seem to have the misconception that good wrestling is about athletics, when in truth, it's all about connecting with people. If someone like Rey Misterio Jr can take all his exciting highspots and channel that into a babyface role and make people relate to him because he's a classic underdog, then he's a good worker. If he's just doing the spots to show off his gymnastic ability, then he's not. So I too want emotion from matches, but I don't think a good match has no heat. Also, I've never come across a good worker who is unable to get over. If they can't get over, they're obviously not that good.

I've always wanted someone to define workrate. In the strictest sense, Rob Van Dam is going to have a higher workrate than Harley Race, but that doesn't mean RVD is the better worker.

I also don't really care for the "so bad it's good" type of entertainment as a rule.

Yes.

What I mean is that is that wrestling is mostly bullshit, and I like it that way. It's about shittalkers, egomaniacs, betrayal, jealousy, adversity and colorful personalities; it's about friendships gone bad and either convincing the public to rally behind you in your cause (babyfaces) or not really giving a damn if they do or not (heels). Taking all those elements out of wrestling makes it very dry and bare bones, to a point where it's not even all that fun anymore.

Might as well add a lucha MVP and an MMA MVP to the list as well. I, unfortunately, don't feel like I've seen enough footage to judge, but I do think JBL should really win Most Improved, Best On Interviews and Best Gimmick in the WON awards, and he won't win anything.

This is a good point. As strange as it sounds to say, promotions should try to book at least 1-2 bad matches on every card. Nothing gets over unless it stands out from the pack, and the best way to make a great match stand out is to surround it with other stuff that you know isn't going to upstage it.

I think it's ridiculous to categorize wrestling into angles, promos and matches, because it's all part of the overall package, and I can guarantee you that no one within the business sees it that way. Everything done outside the ring should be done to build to something inside the ring, and I do agree with that. But wrestling has *always* been a soap opera, and there's just as much story in ROH as there is in WWE, only it takes on a different form. I don't want no-nonsense wrestling, because wrestling is supposed to be nonsense. In short, any vision of wrestling that places angles and matches on anything less than a level playing field is a false one.

Flair will always be an all-time favorite of mine, but man, guys from that era sure do live their gimmicks a little too much. Ric is 56 years old and is getting charged with things like this and has been involved in some other questionable things in the past few years as well. His wife left him recently. It's all kinda sad.

There would be money in a Benjamin/Cena feud if Benjamin could bring it on the mic. That's one case where racial undertones in storylines wouldn't bother me, with Benjamin saying he's content to be himself while Cena wants to be like him. He could expose Cena for growing up in the suburbs, faking the thug stuff, etc. while going on about how he's real and has suffered through hard times, but doesn't feel the need to exploit his hardships to put money in his pocket. Cena could respond by calling him a hypocrite because of those "life in the ghetto" vignettes on Benjamin about a year ago. Shades of gray booking, yeah, but it would probably get over, as long as Shelton could pull off the talking. The only problem is that the crowd would probably side with him.

Lashley is a fresh face that the crowd hasn't shat on. That's enough reason right there to push him.

No, not at all. He was actually saying "comme si comme sa" (spelling may be wrong), which in French means "sort of" or "so-so".

I agree with CJ that the word "nigga" doesn't belong to Vince and he's not allowed to use it. Looking for a similar, but not exactly alike example, I don't think anyone not gay has the right to call someone a fag. Same logic.

Fuck Shawn for being petty enough to seek a job return from a TRIBUTE SHOW. I hate this company. And what's with Michaels pinning Lashley? If this was 1990, they'd have him get DQd or something to protect him.