khawk20

RIP to Verne. Without him creating the wrestling I grew up watching I doubt I would have attached myself to wrestling as a whole as firmly as I did. I'm sad that he's passed but given his struggles with Altzheimers, I'm relieved he is at rest now. Thanks for the memories, Verne.

That was a regular gimmick in the AWA, especially in the early 80's. Referee Joe Fiorito in Winnipeg used that bit all the time. Almost everyone watching a Winnipeg match back then needed it to be explained to them when they saw it, too. The idea makes sense, but the general goofiness of the spot always detracted from the match, imo.

Ray fought Nick Bockwinkel in Quebec in later 1984 or so. A decent portion of that match is available. I'm blanking on much else offhand, though.

This.

Sheik vs. Andre was IIRC from Toronto, and it was some sort of Lights Out match where the loser couldn't get up after a ten or twenty count. So, nobody needed to get pinned to lose the match. There is also a documentary-style dvd someone put out a few years ago on the Sheik that I have which as I remember was pretty decent. Another one I saw recently was a TV news piece on The Sheik talking about what a wildman he was, with an interview with local promoter Ed Farhat about him. LOL. You don't see Farhat outside of his Sheik persona, you just hear his voice over top of some Sheik footage.

Speaking of Buddy, When Verne lost the title to Nick in November of 1975, Buddy was apparently the referee for the bout and they allegedly did some TV interactions with a bit of footage from the switch, the idea being that Pershmann had deliberately missed Bobby Duncum interfering or something like that. Now, I have no idea if Buddy had any TV time trying to explain himself if this happened and he certainly didn't do anything off of it in the AWA afterwards, but I'd love for the Network to find that bit in their vault and pull it out someday to see it. Would be interesting to see if Rose's alleged actions implied a heel ref turn and if we could sense that it was supposed to go somewhere in the weeks afterwards (as far as I know, it didn't), or if it was just a bit stirred up to legitimize Verne actually getting beat. Was Rose interviewed, or just spoken of through the clip explaining the chicanery? At the end of the day Verne ended up going after Bobby Duncum for the interference, and apparently put him over in some places. The result would have been two-fold: legitimize Duncum as a force to rekon with in the AWA, and to give Bock and Heenan an excuse for not defending against Verne, at least not very often. Would be nice to come across one of those Verne-Duncum matches too, just to see how those went in the wake of the title change. Just an odd curiosity I was thinking about again this morning after discussing Buddy from the old KM days on another board.

I can't comment much on Verne, seeing as the majority of his time on top happened before I was around and watching wrestling. I have a few words at the end of this on him. As far as a numeric comparison between Bock and Hogan, I can't really make one as I'd prefer to see the numbers to verify my own memories of them both at various points. I would suggest that Hogan was a legit phenomena from his face turn forward and he drew big against everyone, and. in similar circumstances, would have done so in any company in North America in the years before his WWF run. Put it this way: Super Sunday probably doesn't become a viable event to try and run if anyone but Hogan is in the challenger spot in that time period. You couldn't have positioned anyone else in wrestling at that time for that sort of challenge that I can think of, especially building to that program for an entire year before executing it. Bock was a steadier draw over a longer period of time in the AWA. People hated Bock and Heenan so much that the idea that the latest challenger could beat him was always present and brought people into the arena. As much as the Wanz reign gets criticized, or even Jumbo winning it without any real AWA buildup, it did reinforce the idea that the title could change hands anytime and that certainly helped combined with the fan desire to see Bock and Bobby take one on the chin. (You can't sleep on Heenan as being a big part of Bock's drawing power and I would be interested to see the numbers in terms of Bock alone after Heenan went to Georgia for an extended period vs. Bock with Heenan before and after that.) The rebound factor after Verne retired with the title and Nick got it back I think speaks hugely for Nick's ability to draw in different ways, which one would have to do to stay relevant in a territory with limited bigger cities to work in. His first challenger after being awarded the title in 1981 was Baron Von Raschke. Raschke was the hottest face in the AWA in June of 1981, in the role of Mad Dog's avenger vs. Blackwell and Studd, but as a title challenger he did not translate well. Nobody bought Baron being able to carry the title, especially a month after the title went back to Nick. Their one Minneapolis bout on 6/19 drew poorly and their series was a one-and-done. Had they drawn I believe they would have stuck with that program as per the usual AWA title programs of the time frame. Kaissie had just come in and was getting over very nicely as a psycho heel (the sword angle vs. Tito on TV was intense), so matching him up vs. Nick heel vs. heel was programmed...risky to be sure, but Nick's ability to play the lesser of two evils in that scenario was good enough to draw for several months vs. Kaissie in the Twin Cities. Not everyone could make that transition and then go right back to being the guy everyone paid to see get beaten, and Bockwinkel literally did a good enough job to re-elevate his status as Champ back to pre-Verne retirement angle status. Hogan the Phenom drew great numbers. Bock was steadier and had to be programmed more creatively to maintain his levels. As for Verne, I can tell you that his celebrity in Minnesota was enough to stay on top of his own promotion for decades and draw well enough for the AWA to be a big deal, and to stay a big deal for decades. There is no way that would have happened if he wasn't a draw and a money magnet in the little wrestling world he created. Probably not exactly what you were looking for, but when I get rolling on AWA stuff I tend to babble.

Yes.

I think in the Verne vs. Nick "Ace" case you have to break it down into eras. Verne was the man from 1960-75. Bock was the guy from 75-87. You can take away the Martel-Hansen era from Nick which ate up 2+ years in that span, but you can also take away 65-67 or so when Mad Dog was on the top of the heap, so ti kinda balances out. In Bock's favour, the AWA was very much a tag-team territory and he and Stevens ruled the roost there for many years too, which has to count in his favour. Verne became more of a special attraction after he didn't have the belt post-75, so he was still a draw, but moreso one that people went to see because they knew they couldn't see him all the time. It's not wrong to look at both of them as Aces is what I'm saying. I don't think it hurts either in the realm of GOAT discussion to have their to-end time quantified.

So, on the WWE's History of the World Heavyweight Title show, is the footage of Gene Kiniski vs. Lou Thesz actually the match where Gene wins the title? I'm guessing it's a title defense from after the fact but it's a pretty cool collections of clips. Gene gets the belt form the ref at the end and Lou's pissed.

Abby turned face in a tag match with him and Kamala vs. Martel and Austin Idol. He stayed a face for some time, and then went back to heel just before the promotion closed. He was the face against Bruiser Brody and other Creatchman Family members in that time frame. It was weird but it worked somehow.