khawk20

that did seem like it was there when I read it the first time, but it just didn't read right to me. Reading comprehension in the morning = carry on...

Charisma often translates into the enhanced ability to draw money, does it not? "Accomplishment" is such a confusing concept to me when talking about Pro Wrestling, given that you have to have something special to get noticed and pushed.

FWIW, I watched the 3/23/83 MSG show last night, in particular the Backlund-Muraco match. Monsoon was on commentary, solo. He was decent. Maybe having to do the job by yourself is condusive to calling the action better, I don't know. I do know how much Monsoon and McMahon changed as announcers when they had colour guys with them, although in fairness the over-the-top announcing atmosphere of later-80's WWF broadcasts didn't become like that because of an addition to the booth. Still, it was interesting to hear Monsoon as a solo guy.

I didn't mean to specify "modern wrestling" when I said that, as it's been going on for decades now. Nice to know that someone gets hitting the 'off' button on the mics once in a while is helpful to the presentation. ...and of course it isn't unique to wrestling, as most major sports have full-scale talk-a-thons in the announce booth these days.

They were pretty successful in the AWA but I don't think any sort of argument can be made for a HOF candidacy. The lack of any footage of the team is a roadblock considering that there are not many that would have seen that team wrestle back in the day. The old-timers speak very highly of them as a team, FWIW.

If you want to include the 70's in this question, Vince McMahon was a very good play by play guy. For the most part he let the action do the talking. He was solo back then, so it was a far different setup than the "someone has to be talking at all times" mentality that took over during the Hogan years and continues to this day.

What has someone's 'Charisma' got to do with it when it comes to determining whether someone should be in the Hall of Fame? Charisma is part of the overall package (be it a strong or weak point) in pretty much everyone associated with pro wrestling, is it not? IMO it definitely has it's place when talking about someone's credentials in a discussion like this. I saw Okerlund's overall presentation once described as being akin to a used car salesman, if that analogy helps any. Shit, he may even have been one at some point before getting into wrestling, I can't remember. But as far as his AWA work went, he was as good as the wrestlers themselves when it came to selling matches on an upcoming card. Amongst the 80's AWA announcers and interviewers Ken Resnick was actually decent at it, too.

Actually I see what Dave means and it sorta makes sense to me.

Got it. I'm partial to the title change at Chi-Town Rumble myself.

I like Gene a lot in the AWA. His interplay in the studio interviews with Heenan and others was always excellent. He was actually a decent ring announcer/and pbp man as well. I agree with Dylan, he echoes my thoughts pretty much exactly. I will say that most AWA fans that grew up with marty O'neil as the primary AWA announcer (he was pre-1977-ish, give or take) says Okerlund doesn't compare and they dislike Gene immensely. I grew up with Okerlund and Ken Resnick, Larry Nelson, and the rest after him couldn't hold a candle to him IMO. Roger Kent was also around when I started and did a lot of 80-84 play by play and I liked his stuff too. The rest of the pbp crew after him, not so much. So much of what we like in an announcer is generational, even more so than how differently we look at the wrestlers we grew up watching vs. those we saw after our fandom was established.

Martel said that when they worked together, Bravo was the face in Montreal and the heel in Quebec City, as Bravo is from Montreal and Martel from Quebec. makes sense...the bout(s) I've seen pieces of were from Quebec City as I remember.

My Blackwell comparison wasn't meant to be all-encompassing, it was more of the vibe I get when trying to explain Bravo's importance to the area. He never worked heel in Montreal before his WWF days as far as I know, with the possible exception of his Martel matches. Even that one is subjective as each guy had camps of fans. Bravo did have some moments of heeling in their matches, and Martel was the more traditional good guy. Those two spent more time teaming than they did feuding. Think Gagne-Robinson for a loose comparison.

Didn't Bravo and Gino Brito own the Montreal territory ? More than likely, but I don't know if they owned it for all-times in the 80's or it got passed around.

Which of their matches did you watch?

FWIW (and something I remembered doing some research on Dino Bravo's Quebec tenure), Vince used Mad Dog Vachon on commentary during some of their forays into the Montreal area. he even had a segment on WWF TV broadcast into the Quebec market called "Brunch with Mad Dog". The segment seemed to literally be Mad Dog asking various WWF stars what they like to eat for breakfast and lunch. Very, very odd. Sorry....carry on.

A few years ago, some new Montreal footage surfaced. the listings from those discs give you some idea of how entrenched Bravo was in the main event scene in Montreal. I've extracted the Bravo matches from the listings below. The range of bouts here are from approximately 1981 through early 1986: Dino Bravo vs. Sailor White Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Masked Superstar & King Tonga Dino Bravo vs Rick Martel (Quebec City, Verne Gagne in Martel’s corner, Gino Brito in Bravo’s) Dino Bravo vs Masked Superstar ( 3 matches between 6 & 23 /8/83 ) Dino Bravo vs Kurt Von Hess Dino Bravo vs Michel Dubois 22/7/81 (film clips) Dino Bravo vs Abdullah The Butcher (from Montreal—NOT the Japan Bloodbath) Dino Bravo vs Jimmy Snuka (Snuka is a heel brought in and managed by Lord Al Hayes) Dino Bravo vs Pierre Lefebvre Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Hull, Quebec ) Dino Bravo (Int Champ) vs. King Tonga (Title Change) Dino Bravo & Joe Leduc vs King Tonga & Masked Superstar Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs. King Tonga & Masked Superstar (Montreal Forum) Dino Bravo & Billy Robinson vs King Tonga & Abdullah the Butcher Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Montreal Forum) Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs King Tonga & Nick Bockwinkel Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Sheik Ali & Jimmy Garvin Dino Bravo vs Frenchie Martin Dino Bravo vs Samu (International title) Road Warriors vs. Dino Bravo/Rick Martel Dino Bravo vs. Sheik Ali Dino Bravo vs. Masked Superstar (Montreal, Superstar attacks Bravo before the match gets going and puts him out, a wild scene ensues with fans throwing chairs) I bolded the ones most worth seeing from what I remember. This list is by no means complete, I'm sure, but you can see that Bravo's position in the important matches on the International area cards must have meant he was a viable main event guy, very popular with the fans, over the long term, and a more-than-credible champion and #1 contender at all times. I would guess he had some sort of stake in the promotion but I don't know that, and even if he did, he obviously drew well enough that pushing himself into the main event was a solid business move. Bravo wrestled in and around Montreal from the very early 70's (There is some work of his available from the Vachon's Grand Prix promotion, circa 1972-74) , so his popularity in the area was cultivated over time. When his turn to take the ball and run with it came, he was able to do so in grand fashion. I liken it to Jerry Blackwell's AWA run, as described by Dylan when he was making a HOF credentials thread for Jerry, except that Bravo was able to keep himself viable as a top guy in a much smaller area compared to Blackwell in the AWA. Gotta be really over to do that. As far as I know, in his entire time in Montreal before departing for the WWF, he was always a face.

I wrote up over thirty matches! I don't care if they disagree, but I'd rather not they be confused about it! As for Dino, I fully believe that he was a hell of a draw/super over in Montreal, and the talk of them canceling the match with Hogan would prove speak to that too, but he was probably the worst/laziest pushed guy from a work perspective in the WWF during the late 80s and that's a pretty tough post peak to get over. Slightly related, as for WON voting, how they could put Fuji over Frenchy Martin for worst manager is beyond me. WWF Dino vs. Montreal Dino are two completely different animals. Dino was certainly the go-to guy in Quebec in the first part of the 80's. No question. He was mostly the champion of the area, and the top heels would come in and fight him for the title. Sorta reminds me of Backlund's title reign, except the heel challengers would get the title once in a while, sometimes even keeping it for a bit and making Bravo the chaser. Masked Superstar and King Tonga are the two that spring immediately to mind. Robinson is another one I think had a run with him.

Jeff is wrong on the date. It was the 74 bout. I think this is stuff from Dan and the recent IWE dvd releases. John Awwwwwwwww. It'll still be fun to watch. I love the old IWE stuff, some real gems have come out of those releases. Some really early career matches of some guys too, like Sgt. Slaughter and the Sheepherders. This set also has a Bockwinkel-Ashua Hara match I don't think I've seen before.

Just ordered the latest IWE Chronicles set from Mr. Lynch. This one has a listing for a Verne Gagne-Billy Robinson match from 11/20/79 in Japan. Jeff said it's about 40 minutes with full ring intros and national anthems, the whole shebang. I had no idea they wrestled after their 1974 series so I'm really looking forward to seeing it. EDIT: I have realized that this could also be their 1974 bout from 11/20 labeled wrong, but there is lots of other decent stuff on that set anyway so no problem if it is. Verne was on tour in the IWE during that part of November in 1979 so it might very well be new.

Those four entries are the obvious ones.

Understand that I'm not advocating him as a HOF candidate, but I do think he was more of a star than he sometimes gets acknowledged as.

He had a good run as the top challenger to Verne in 1974-75. I've always sort of thought of him in the same vein as Ivan Koloff: He could have filled Koloff's role as the guy who beat Bruno and had three weeks as WWWF Champion. One of the reasons his switch to face in the AWA as the avenging angel for an injured Mad Dog Vachon was so hugely received was that he was such a consumate heel for so many years before that. I doubt that helps much, but Raschke was a pretty big name for a long time.

I thought of you when I saw they actually got some votes.

Curt Hennig should be mentioned if he hasn't been already. His work was highly thought of in the AWA until he started seriously climbing the ladder in 85-86. FWIW (not much to me), Meltzer used to point to him as the best wrestler in the company in 1984, when he was being used in the midcard or below. I suppose it depends on when you think his peak was.