khawk20

Anyone know what year Billy Robinson crossed the 45 year-old-barrier?

Bock is my immediate first choice as well. Consider that his 60-minute draw with Curt Hennig in Vegas happened when he was 52. Aside from that, the sheer number of quality matches and opponents he had defending the AWA title for the most part from 79 through 87 is pretty astounding. Verne had his epic series against Robinson in 1974, plus a ton of good matches against Nick Bockwinkel between 73 and 81. He didn't wrestle as often as Nick, and I don't know how much consideration volume of matches should be given here.

True, but one could (and should) argue that teams or singles that maintained a strong, steady drawing power in one area for years, in an era where the majority or wrestlers travelled to different territories to stay fresh, are perhaps more impressive in their drawing power, in the sense that they keep drawing in the same core audience time after time.

Dave spoke of the AWA so condescendingly in his early newsletters that it would take someone pretty close to him to convince him of Blackwell's legitimacy as a candidate. He would need to see and study Blackwell from 80 - 84 to get it, if he had any inclination to "get it" in this case. Same reason the High Flyers would never seriously get consideration, unfortunately.

In Hogan's first title challenge vs. Nick Bockwinkel in April of 1982, Hogan uses Brass knuckles that Heenan tried to throw to Bock to score the pin. he subsequently hides the Nucks and lies to the referee about having them or using them. Good thing that result was overturned and Bockwinkel got the title back from that cheater!

It's excellent and the fact that the match is shot using the alternate "Raw Footage" camera with no announcers and no filter on the crowd noise amps it up even more.

Blackwell interfered for the Sheik to beat Vachon, noteworthy as he either had just become affiliated with the Sheik, or this was the start of it. vachon vs. Sheik was an offshoot of Sheik-Bockwinkel from December 1981, with Vachon as the Special referee. Same finish as the more-famous St. Paul bout with Raschke as the referee, where the face ref ends up giving Kaissie an accidental chair shot while swinging for Bockwinkel, and then having to count out the Sheik since he was KOed. One post-match attack by the Sheik later, and the next feud is born... I’d say based on the video of the 6-man from the Minneapolis show, it was likely a sell-out or near to it. The setup for the Sheiks-Flyers feud was likely the same in every town: Karbo can’t find an opponent for the Flyers on short notice since the team he had lined up (Japanese or something like that) had to cancel, so Karbo asks the Flyers to do him a favour and wrestle the Sheiks in a non-title match. The Flyers are not happy but agree to take the match for Wally’s sake, but they make it clear that this new team has not earned any sort of title matches. Sheiks win the non-title match, and out of it earn title shots…and the Flyers react suitably pissed in interviews promoting the title bouts. Very nicely done in the interview circle here. The COR wins for the Flyers was interesting as the Sheiks scored the pin with one of the Flyers feet on the ropes. Titles are awarded to the Sheiks, and they immediately leave the ring and go back to the dressing room. Someone comes in (promoter, wrestler) and tells the ref about the feet on the ropes, and the ref restarts the match. Sheiks don’t know the match is restarted, and get counted out when they don’t return. Flyers win by COR. This finish was done pretty much around the horn in the Sheiks initial title challenge. Patera and Duncum were red-hot as a team and seen by more fans as the team likely to beat Gagne and Brunzell, believe it or not. Even the Apter mags bumped up patera and Duncum to the top 5 or 6 in their tag rankings, something the rarely if ever did with AWA challenging tag teams (usually an entry in 9th or 10th in the ratings was as high as they would go with an AWA challenging team). The Sheiks vs. Patterson/Stevens bout would have been a Number 1 contender match, with the winner getting a shot at the Flyers. But, then this… 9/23/82 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada @ Arena Non Title Dino Bravo & Rick Martel beat AWA Tag Team Champions Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell AWA Champion Otto Wanz beat Nick Bockwinkel Adrian Adonis beat Baron Von Raschke Bobby Heenan beat Ray Stevens dq Ken Patera & Bobby Duncum no contest Jerry Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Sgt Jacques Goulet beat Buddy Lane Att: 6,588 No kidding, the Flyers likely decided that they would give a rematch to Bravo and Martel and made the Sheiks have ANOTHER #1 contenders match for the next title shot. It was not above the Flyers to be made to seem like they were dictating their challengers at times. This was not uncommon for AWA champs in both divisions to pull. Verne and Mad Dog did the same thing against Ventura and Adonis in 1980. Interesting that on the 11/82 card in Winnipeg, The Flyers gave the title shot to Patera and Duncum over the Sheiks, after the two teams had a no-contest. Perhaps the Sheiks got a shot on the October card? Anyhow, it was a technique that the AWA braintrust used to spread out the length of their feuds, and not a bad one considering that the talent roster was somewhat limited in numbers. Of note is that St. Paul on Christmas night in 82 had the Sheiks vs. the Flyers with Curt Hennig as the referee. Big heat for that one, and likely a very strong crowd (Hogan vs. Jesse was a co-main on that show..not sure if Bock defended or not).

This was a huge show, and it set the table for the Super Sunday Verne comeback as he got laid out by Blackwell and Sheik trying to make the save for Baron and mad Dog. Incredible heat generated here by the Blackwell-Adnan team. The Civic Center was sold out (18,000+ given as a number IIRC), and the adjoining Roy Wilkins Auditorium also apparently had 5000 or better in to watch in on closed circuit. Overall the numbers here were better than Wrestlerock at the Metrodome 3 years later. Bob Burke – Leo Burke, FWIW. This was around the time they were running the Death Matches between Vachon and Blackwell, a culmination of their 3-year feud, of sorts. This could very well have been a death match. These bouts spawned the infamous Vachon “Pine Box” promo with Mean Gene in the Dog’s workshop. It likely was as this came right on the heels of Heenan selling Ken Patera’s contract for $500,000 to Sheik Adnan so Patera could team with Blackwell. They sometimes did afternoon/evening shows so it’s possible that’s what happened here. If I had to guess I’d bet Wahoo was Raschke’s partner for this one. Just a guess, though. Hogan returning very close to this date after being away since the Super Sunday show (coupled with a big Fan drive to petition Hogan to return) cannot be discounted as a big attraction, either. I agree as Christmas night in St. Paul was traditionally a very good drawing show.

You should be able to at least get a feel for 1982 when you check out the AWA YIR 82 discs.

Glad to contribute.

Schire's write-up about the Battleroyal has this line: "Twenty thousand fans cheered "Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!" as Blackwell was brutally beaten and stomped in the ring." 20 thousand is pushing it but it's clear that he's implying a sell-out. He would have been at the card as him and Karch were running a Fan Convention tied into the card on that weekend, according to the book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW0Npqt1oS0...f=results_video Watch all 18 of these if you can, but Blackwell vs. Ritchie is in AWA 4 starting around 1:40. It's the start of Blackwell's "monster" push, almost immediately after his debut. Blackwell's original Bodyslam challenge is on AWA 6. All of these are AWA tv stuff from Jan 1980 -April 1980, from the Home TV in St. Paul. great stuff.

I had no idea that the Showboat could even be configured to hold that many. a 2000 attendance figure seemed to be the max for the TV tapings that began there in 1986, and that looked to be about the right size of the room judging from the tv. This show was all Crusher vs. Blackwell, no doubt. The 1/15/84 show capped the Bock-Vachon trilogy with Bock-Mulligan losing to Vachon-Crusher when Lanza came down and convinced Mulligan to abandon Bock and reform the Blackjacks. I don't think there was a card in between those two, and to go up from that January show (all three of the Bock-Vachon centered bouts drew well) is really something in my mind. The whole month of March was big with new Champion Tsuruta coming in and tag team spectaculars with guys being brought in that weren't mornally there. I assume that Tsuruta et al ended their tour before the St. Paul show as it seems strange that Jumbo isn't defending at the home base show. I *think* Milwaukee had a larger setup they would use once in a blue moon when they expected a large number...am I thinking of Green Bay? one of the two used to be able to do this...maybe even a second larger arena was used. Can't remember offhand... A Verne comeback match used to draw decently as well. He did one or two a year through 1986 and they seemed to always do decently. I would bet a lot of folks thought Greg might actually win the title, believe it or not. Yep. I have to dispute this number (I have previously). This show was a sell-out, no question. It is occasionally credited as such, but the 8,000 number come sup a lot and I am convinced it's wrong. I think someone dropped the 1 from the front of the 8000, honestly. AWA Summertime blues once again. Seriously the summer numbers were always the shits, and quite frankly, Brody and Abby vs. Crusher/Raschke drew very poorly prety much everywhere they went with it. A no-dq match between the teams drew 1900 in Winnipeg, lowest number I've seen there. Most people assumed Martel would lose the title to Bockwinkel the first time they met after Martel won the belt. Seriously. That's the reason for the attendance going up at a time when shows would traditionally do really low numbers. Well....this is a pretty awful show. Plus it’s martel defending the title for the first time, so the “will he lose it back?” aspect comes into play. This may also have been the LOD’s Winnipeg debut, which would have helped a lot. Verne did some weird stuff sometimes, but here he was banking on the Weasel suit 6-man (Heenan’s Twin Cities farewell bout) to draw, and not the title match. No idea why it didn’t. Also keep in mind that Blackwell was out “injured” by Brody after the June 17 battleroyal. The revenge match against Brody draws well, as it should after a 3 month build. Same thing with the other shows, although Brody no-showing probably hurts Chicago and Green bay later. Brody-Blackwell was no doubt advertised as the big draw on all the shows, though. Again, pretty sure Brody no-showed this one and the handicap match was a subbed in bout. No shit, the roof fucking blew off at the end of Jerry-Brody when Gagne hugged and made peace with Blackwell. One of the greatest AWA moments of the 80’s no doubt. No doubt hurt by Brody not showing up for the initial bout in the series. Bundy was on this show too, IIRC, as he ran in and got bloodied by Brody. Actually that makes me wonder if the matches on the last two Winnipeg cards are screwed up since Bundy fought Robinson on the show…Atlas vs. Robinson on this one. Doesn’t make sense Bundy would be in only to get bloodied by Brody. I don’t think people bought Garvin as a real title threat vs. Martel, and, given Blackwell’s opponent and position on the card, that would have been the match that was headlining. Superstar had debuted with the Sheiks army on the last show, saving Adnan from Greg in the cage. I have heard from some that Blackwell made huge money in 1984 after his face turn, which Verne sort of had to do to fend off Vince. There is a story that Jerry actually defected and went to a WWF taping in St. Louis, but left at the last minute and went back to the AWA out of a sense of loyalty to Verne since Verne had really pushed him into a star spot when he got to the AWA in 1980.

Agreed on The High Flyers write-up. Brody injuring both on TV in April 1984 took them out of the tag picture until Brunzell's return in January 85, at which time they worked their way back into contention and had a Winnipeg program with the Road Warriors, one of their matches happening to be a six man with Ellering and Jerry Blackwell included. After that, Brunzell was taken by the WWF and Gagne began to flounder. The AWA was primarily an area that focused on tag teams, so you're right about Gagne and Brunzell's drawing power being impressive. Slaughter was trained by Gagne, and his run as SD II was a good one. With Lord Al Hayes as his Manager, and Neil Guay coming in as SD III for a bit, Slaughter was a force as a heel in the area for quite a while. Near the end of his run, he had a run as both a face and as a heel after Heenan stole him from Hayes after the Bravo tv upset victory, and subsequently turned on him later which saw some SD II - Bockwinkel matches in 1980 and some Bock-Heenan vs. SD II - Greg Gagne matches booked. Make no mistake about it, SD II was a monster heel in the AWA. The chiseled jaw coupled with never speaking (Hayes did all the talking) made him a very imposing figure. I recently picked up some really early "Bobby Slaughter" matches from the mid-70's in IWE Japan. Good stuff. You could see the talent even though he was still very green. I imagine as a trainee of Verne, Verne had some pull getting him sent over there for a tour or two, and liked the results well enough to bring him back later as SD II.

Blackwell got the main event in Minneapolis vs. Verne on 12/12/80 as well. This one was built very successfully as Verne vs. the Monster. 2 things working for this show: This is a Crusher going for revenge match after Vachon got put out of wrestling by Blackwell and Studd (Raschke was brought in most places), and this is possibly the last Verne match in Denver before he retired. I think it is an above-average number for Denver but I'm just speculating. Don't discount Verne's farewell tour as being a big draw on both of these shows, and the Crusher-Raschke revenge matches were also heavily built up. Sometimes, the AWA would run the same program a few months apart in different areas. This could possibly account for a few of Blackwell's odd matches in 1981, filling time between the Crusher-Raschke feud and Verne challenges. Not so! Rheingans being only a few months in got a HUGE rub in holding Blackwell to a draw here, and Rheingans got in a big suplex or two on Blackwell that were remarkable demonstrations of strength. Blackwell was definitely used to help get Rheingans established. Of note here is that this turned into a feud that eventually got Hulk Hogan involved and subsequently sealed his face turn in the AWA when Hulk saved Rheingans from a sneak attack in Winnipeg. I noted Blackwell-Rheingans was the vehicle that got Hogan officially to turn face, and it must be noted that Kaissie was indeed a serious contender for the AWA title. Kaissie's challenge was used to re-establish Bockwinkel as the champion after the hit the title took when Verne retired with the belt and Bock was given it back. Raschke-Bockwinkel drew flies in June 1981 in Minneapolis, and Raschke was the top face in the AWA at that point and hugely over with the fans. The Kaissie-Bock series was quite successful in returning things "to normal" with the title. it's hard to think of Kaissie as a serious challenger based on seeing him later on, but at that time, he was a real threat in the fan's eyes. IMO you have to make this a triple main event as per my thoughts on Kaissie-Bockwinkel previously noted.

My notes: Blackwell was already being built here. He came in in Minneapolis on the 1/13/80 card and destroyed Ron Ritchie. Steve O made the save, moving towards O-Blackwell the next card. The heat in the Minny card was off the charts...I would imagine that Verne noted this and ran with a similar program in every town. To the same, reaction, I can't say, but the Minny version was strong enough that Verne jumped on it. Blackwell and Bravo had a tv angle leading to this series of bodyslam matches. I can't recall without checking the tape again but I think there was some tv bodyslam controversy that started it off...Blackwell was doing a weekly tv slam challenge. Bravo may also have saved some jobbers from a beating to get things going. I have to check again... Again, Blackwell generated so much hatred right off the bat when he debuted in the AWA that a quick progression to semi-mains is not surprising. Bravo was fairly new at this point as well, having debuted on TV beating monster-heel Super Destroyer II and unmasking him in late 1979. Of note, Bruiser jobbed to Blackwell there. Bruiser rarely jobbed to anyone at that point, especially in Chicago. That result at the time was big news amongst Chicago AWA fans. I think the sellout in Milwaukee was 6112. The fall Batleroyal series was always a big winner for the AWA, annually. Blackwell and Andre in the same ring both in singles and in the battleroyal would have been attractive, no doubt, but don'd discount how big the battleroyals were as a draw.

The only caution I would throw into those numbers are the following: a) Every once in a while, an AWA town would spike for no real reason, such as Salt Lake seemed to there. The same thing happened in 1987 in San Frana, just before Super Clash II was booked. It never made sense to me why Verne booked that show in San Fran, but they did IIRC ten thousand in attendance on the show previous to that a few months before (SC II drew 2800). That number was really out of the blue, much like that Salt Lake number appears to have been. It happens sometimes. B ) The AWA never seemed to do decent business in the summer. Winnipeg suffered both in 84 and 85 in the summer months. St. Paul was often not much better in July and August, and sometimes even September (Heenan's Weasel suit match finale before he left for the WWF was promoted to death and only drew 3,000...that was either August or early September 1984). It's been said that Verne often let things ride through the summer, building angles for the fall and generally keeping things "unspectacular". I'm pretty sure around the time Jerry disappeared is about the same time he started having real health issues. It would also not surprise me if the Roadies were beginning to take JCP dates again at that time.

THe WInnipeg arena could hold probably 13-15,000 for wrestling. they never approached selling it out on any attendance figures I have ever seen. They drew 8,920 fo the October 84 show and I think drew over 10,000 once or twice in 81-82, but I don't have those numbers handy. From my own calculations for 84-86 based on results compiled by Clawmaster and Vance Nevade primarily, They drew between 3400 and 7500 from January through April (both 84 and 85), between 1800 and 3500 from May through July (both 84 and 85), and they drew 3500 and 8900 between August and December (both 84 and 85). I have a proper breakdown somewhere but I can't find it at the moment. So while they never drew to capacity, the town was averaging probably around 4,000 - 4500 in a given year, for 84 and 85, and Jaunary of 86, when the AWA stopped running there (and not because they weren't drawing, unfortunately...the last AWA show in Winnipeg drew almost 7,000 fans). From other numbers I have seeen, I think that was comparable if not slightly higher than what they drew in previous years in the 80's and quite likely the 70's as well. They had a very steady, loyal fan base in Winnipeg. It makes it easier to track the attendance spikes if nothing else, and to trace what the likely cause for said spikes were.

Martel is a personal favourite and aside from his AWA work, he has a significant body of work in the WWF and Montreal, among other places. As the AWA Champion, he was unique in that he was the first face champion that held the title for any length of time aside from Verne...heck, probably ever. There's an old article on Kayfabe Memories that talks about how huge his feud with Dino Bravo in 1982/83 was in Quebec, considering they were both faces when it happened. IMO, that feud was partially responsible for Verne deciding to give Martel a crack as AWA Champion (along with heavy lobbying from Nick Bockwinkel and the thought of losing his services to McMahon in the wake of the Hogan defection). How he was programmed was sometimes a burden to how he was looked at as Champion, but could also be considered a testament to how good a worker he was in the sense that he was given a widely divergent list of programs and high-profile one-offs in St. Paul. Being constantly thought of and talked about as the third wheel in the Champions gallery that was Hogan, Flair, and Martel I think hurt how people saw his title reign at the time. In hindsight, he was a good choice as champion and Verne used his verstility to make unlikely challengers seem like credible threats to the belt. A partial list of his challengers would include Robinson, Rheingans, Backlund, Tsuruta (all on centerpiece St. Paul cards), Bockwinkel, King Tonga, Jim Garvin (Garvin and Bock all over, Tonga in Montreal and New Jersey...Bock and Garvin also got Jersey challenges for PWUSA), Kamala, Zbyszko, Gordy, Hayes (long program), ZUrkov (long Winnipeg program), Buddy Roberts, Kendo Nagasaki, Mr. Saito, and Stan Hansen. I'm sure there were more. That's a helluva list of different wrestlers and styles that Martel had. His pre-championship AWA work was relatively typical of face AWA guys, but it sort of served as a proving ground that Martel could have entertaining matches against a wide variety of wrestlers, in both singles and tag action. For those that ended up getting Hansen's book, I believe there is a chapter in it about his AWA time and I'd be curious to see what he thought of Martel as a wrestler. I know what the guy he inherited the title from (Bock, through Jumbo, of course) thinks of his work, I'd love to know what the guy that took the title from him thinks of his work too.

Feel free to C and P it wherever you think it might be relevant, John. No issues here.

I agree with this post 100%. III kicked the WWF into a whole other stratosphere. As much as we wanted to believe that the other promotions could maintain or even gain on the WWF, I think most of us knew it wasn't the reality of the situation after III came and went.

..on Blackwell in St. Louis, he was pushed decently there but St. Louis was such an odd duck of a territory with the number of guys in and out that Blackwell's star there sort of blends in, as opposed to how it stands out in the AWA. I'm not a St. Louis expert of any sort but that's how I've seen his time there.

Blackwell was the AWA's MVP from 1980 through 1984 (Bobby Heenan notwithstanding). Monster heel when he came in as a single, and the fans HATED him. People were ready to lynch him for the beatings he used to give to young up-and-comers like Ron Ritchie and Steve O. His challenge to the AWA singles title was limited to a match or two against Verne in that time frame, but he was such a monster that he could be programmed with any face on the roster and it was compelling. His team with Kaissie was even more hated than Blackwell as a single. Their feud with Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell was extremely hot, and begun very cleverly when the Flyers agreed to take a non-title match against the Sheiks as a favour to promoter Wally Karbo as the top chellengers could not be on the upcoming card. one non-title win later, their feud was born, and it carried on throughout 1982 and into the early part of 1983. Blackwell was the driving force in that feud, and they also managed to bring Mad Dog Vachon back for revenge against Blackwell for injuring him the year previous. Blackwell was able to hold up his end of it in two major programs almost at the same time, and was able to generate enough heat to bring the fans in for both. Keep in mind that Blackwell had been in the AWA for 3 years+ straight at this point, and was still able to maintain his aura of invincibility to a degree...no small feat. Out of the Vachon feud Blackwell moved right into his team with Ken Patera and a reign as the World Tag team Champions, a title that they held for a full year. From there, Blackwell was turned face in the infamous June 1984 battleroyal in St. Paul where Kaissie, Abdullah and Brody attacked im after he won it. Blackwell became the most popular wrestler in the AWA almost overnight, and had a lengthy albeit strangely booked feud with Brody running through the middle of 1985. Blackwell had health problems which affected his ability to wrestle regularly after the middle of 1985, but whenever he came back he was always greeted with a huge reaction. Even as late as 1989/90, Blackwell was brought into the Rochester TV tapings to team with the New Fantastics against the Destruction Crew and Johnny V, and he was still extremely over. As a heel, he had major feuds and programs with Mad Dog Vachon, Baron Von Raschke, Dino Bravo, The High Flyers, Hulk Hogan, Brad Rheingans and the Crusher. Hell, Verne got Andre to take a DQ loss to Blackwell in 1980, which I imagine wasn't a common (or inexpensive) thing back then. As a face, he had feuds with Kaissie and various forms of his army, Brody, The Freebirds, Boris Zurkov, Kamala, The Road Warriors, and I'm sure a few more I am forgetting. Blackwell drew, and was able to do so in a singular territory for the better part of ten years. that is no small feat.His transition to a face IMO extended his time as a top draw, simply because he had exhausted almost every avenue possible as a heel that could draw, with the possible exception of never doing a program with Rick Martel. He really found his niche in the AWA, and you have to give Verne Gagne a lot of credit for giving Jerry a chance to carry the ball as a monster heel, considering he was a mid-range heel at best in the WWWF previously and even less of a player in any other areas he may have been in previous to that (MACW is one he had a match or two in but no push from what I have seen. Mulligan squashed him in one match IIRC). I consider him a worthy candidate for the HOF and those that were also witness to his AWA run, especially 80 - 84 as a heel, would likely agree. Dave from the get-go has always been sour on the AWA and I suspect he has not seen much if any of Blackwell's 80 - 84 work as a heel. This hurts the idea that Dave would give him a push of any sort to improve his candidacy. But it's hard to argue the idea that he deserve serious consideration when you look at his body of work and sustained drawing/star power in what was one of the "Big Three" at the time of his ascent to key player.

I had heard about that but I thought it was a St. Louis thing. I *might* have read about it in Larry Matysik's book but I'm just guessing off the top of my head...

Jeez, that was AWFUL. The fans should be ashamed of themselves for cheering that abortion. If that's the sort of Daddy matches Metlzer has been exposed to, no wonder he might be hesitant to pushing his HOF candidacy forward.