khawk20

One of the qualities of Hennig's AWA title reign was that, for the hardcore AWA fans, he was a real hope that the AWA could turn things around amidst the Mitch Snows, Soldat Ustinovs, JT Southerns and Rocky Mountain Thunders that we were being subjected to on TV every week. Hennig was great, no doubt, but think about how much better he looked compared to the rest of the AWA TV fare at that time. Put it this way: I enjoyed his early Mr. Perfect bouts in the WWF against guys like Jim Brunzell as much as I did some of his title defenses in the main-event slot on AWA TV shows. It's something to think about, if nothing else.

This is what they did in the Twin Cities.

That's about what I expected. McAdam has always been an AWA hater too, similar to Meltzer..."Another unmarried Marriage Counselor", so to speak.

Rick Martel had his career curtailed by injury, but came back for his run against Booker T in WCW long enough to make viewers realize that he could still go (before he got hurt again). I suppose Martel could be looked at as an example of someone that realized they should stop/cut back a lot when their injuries began to pile up and get worse in scope. In his case, the right time to hang 'em up was when his body told him to...and he listened.

Yeah. Bock ended his AWA run in the first week of August 1987, went to Japan for a few weeks at the end of that month, then segued over to the WWF to do colour commentary for a bit. After Japan, he was basically done in the ring except for the odd special match and his stint as WCW Commissioner. In Bock's case, he could still go when he quit, which is rare in the sense that he was having really good matches only a couple of months before he stopped wrestling full-time. He never got to the point where people were actively talking like he should retire because he looked bad in the ring, or out of shape. He was an anomaly, though. The list of mid-to-late 50-year-old wrestlers that retired from the ring at that point and still looked good is likely a pretty short one.

That's not unusual, there is a lot of AWA "ignorance" on WC. It'll be an uphill climb to get most of the board even interested in the idea of how much Blackwell meant to the AWA. Most seem to be stuck in "Verne was stoopid!!!!11" mode these days.

The thing about that spot was it was done over a few minutes, with three or four attempts to get back into the ring by the face, so it became plausible to the viewer that the face had time to recover his strength and get a second wind in that timespan.

If Lawler's comebacks = Warrior's comebacks, all babyface comebacks = Warrior's comebacks. Yeah, because that's what they all did, no-selling with a little visual gimmick thrown in : Ricky Morton, Tito Santana, Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Brad Armtrong, Atsushi Onita, Chigusa Nagayo, Bob Backlund, Bret Hart... well, I could go on and on. Some did the no-sell routine, it worked for Hogan, Sting, Lawler, Warrior, even Tatanka (oh yeah), but not every babyface in wrestling was about making a comeback by just stopping selling for the heel. I don't care for this stuff, it annoys me every time. The AWA had a simple comeback spot for the faces that almost all of them used at some point: Face gets dominated for a bit, gets thrown out of the ring, and the heel refuses to let them back into the ring (attack from inside the ring, inturrupt the refs count with a kick, etc.). Eventually the face gets mad, slams a ringside table or the apron, and forces his way back into the ring. The Heel immediately begs off and the face goes on the attack. They didn't quit selling for the heels, they just got mad and took over. I always found it both believable and effective.

I think he likely would have done even worse had he done that. I think he was just too small for anyone but his Dad to push. He likely would have done worse for the simple fact that the High Flyers were one of the most over, best drawing and best working tag teams of the 70s/80's and it's highly unlikely that degree of success would have been replicated elsewhere no matter what his degree of talent. One of the great problems with Greg is that his work from 85-90 is abundantly available and has been seen by most people with some sort of AWA exposure. His best stuff was from the era that there is very little film available for by comparison, that being 1974-83. People have a hard time believing Greg was ever over based on how they saw him in the last few years of his career. It's a problem that won't go away anytime soon and it inherently brings down any talk of the High Flyers being a "great" team.

I think you've got it right, although I had a big c-band dish so my viewing was all over the place anyways. I do remember never getting TBS in Thunder Bay for some reason having to do with the tv/radio monopoly in this town that has been in place forever, yet a town of 2000 45 minutes up the road got TBS and a bunch of other good stations in the clear all the time. This was a serious issue with be before we got the dish.

Not necessarily, although it's hard to put some masked wrestlers in context. There was a real aura around most of them way-back-when, and that IMO contributed to their drawing power.

Just awful.

Raw did a 2.7 on Monday. Not unexpected against the return of MNF accordint to Herb (which makes sense, I guess), but still...ouch.

That is also the only one on film.

Possibly, but I wouldn't say that was a for-sure. Even the sharpest promoter I think eventually would have fallen trying to compete with Vince on a national level. Verne had some good talent but not enough to spread out and gain inroads in smaller, non-traditional AWA markets. One thing Vince had was enough wrestlers to run 2 or 3 shows a night. Even if they were shitty shows, it was getting the WWF name out there which, combined with the expanding TV market, gave the illusion that the WWF was the "best" game in town. Vince had some terrible crowds in the Twin Cities after their debut show on 6/17/84, all the way through until Thanksgiving 1985. Still, he didn't pull out of that area because he knew he had to gain the upper hand in the home base of the AWA to ultimately take them down. Vince did not want Verne to have even one fall-back market once his expansion ideas fizzled out...and by 1987, he really didn't with the AWA being down to crowds of 1000 in the ancient Minneapolis Auditorium on a good night. One of the things about the AWA that made it successful before 1984 ultimately hurt it badly after 1984: The old stars of the area (Crusher, Raschke, Greg Gagne, Lary Hennig, Bruiser) crossed over from crafty veterans to over-the-hill very quickly. Nobody could replace Crusher's overwhelming popularity in the AWA, and unfortunately by 1984 he was pretty much a parody of his former self. There were many factors that lead to the demise of the AWA. Verne's business sense in the "modern age" of TV and pro wrestling was a part of it, but not all of it, and I consider it unfair to place all the blame on him.

I believe Bob didn't want to go in becasue he still considered himself an active worker, with a chance to get pushed again. He saw the HOF offer as something for retired wrestlers. So I've heard.

This ties into my last post in the sense that Dave would need a complete reprogramming of his brain to recognize JYD as a HOF candidate. Dave's hate for "Junkfood Dog" was crazy. No way he recognizes JYD as anything HOF worthy unless a lobotomy is involved.

The best way to compare him is probably to find someone else whose career path in the AWA is mimicked by another wrestler in another area. By career path, I mean with a hot debut and a continued ability to be a continuous draw through a changing environment, with different alliances, partners, and feuds, in the same territory. This may be a piece of the definition of a comparable that you're looking for, but in Blackwell's case that may have to be the crux of the whole comparison. I don't know who that wrestler might be. On Dave and the AWA: I think that the older AWA guard that were big in the 60's and 70's is reasonably represented, in so much as Dave saw those guys as much as he would have seen pretty much everyone else (relatively little would be my guess, given the lack of national tv back then and the lack of footage on the stars of the era. We're all in that boat at some point in wrestling history or another depending on our age...). jdw isn't wrong about initial representation of AWA wrestlers compared to other territories from where I sit. From my readings of the WON it has always been clear to me that the AWA was seen in a hugely negative light in the 1984-90 era. If that was the first real tv exposure that Dave ever had to the AWA, it explains a lot...his complaints against the AWA from 84-90 are echoed by many. I also think that part of the problem is that Dave relied on his correspondents from the area to formulate his opinion on the AWA from 84-90. His correspondent(s) never seemed to have many good things to say. If your initial impression of something is negative, it's a more difficult to have your mind changed to a positive impression. As such, the work of a guy like Blackwell from 1980 - 85 has *less* chance of being recognized and championed by Dave and other voters with the same negative impressions of the AWA they may have gained when they started to see the AWA nationally between 1985 and 1990. Buddy Rose is in the same boat insofar as his AWA tag title reign with Doug Somers was seen as a bad joke at the time. Somers being a career jobber-to-low-mid-card guy given the spot with Rose did not help. A lack of quality opponents outside of Jannetty and Michaels did not help. Rose/Somers comparisons to the champs of the WWF and NWA did not help. Was Rose awesome in the AWA? People looking at it with a critical eye 25 years after the fact would likely tell you "yes". The impression at the time that many fans who are possibly now voters would have had would have been less than positive. In Blackwell's case, his face turn and Brody feud is good on it's own but even better when you know the context of the turn...that context being Blackwell's lengthy time as The Most Hated Man on the AWA Planet. Hell, even the Brody feud only helps in a limited capacity given the no-shows and the lack of a clean win for Blackwell when all was said and done. Unfortunately, Blackwell could not keep up the schedule he wrestled from 1980 - early 84 because of his health, and that also limited viewers in the post-84 era to what they saw of him. I believe Blackwell is a worthy candidate, but I understand the challenge of getting him elected, as that challenge is the same for anyone not yet in that had a more solid pre-WON career than post-WON career.

If it's true that HHH embraces the old school, watches it, studies it, and tries to employ old school ideas and techniques in his matches, then I should really like the guy...or should have liked him at some point. ...but I have never liked him one bit, not his look, style, or promo ability. I SHOULD have liked him at some point, even briefly, but I never have.

It all depends on how much of this content you're going to bring over there to argue in favour of Blackwell as a HOF candidate. There are some informed AWA guys over there but not many, so posting information for discussion might be better as opposed to asking for opinions first, and then posting discussion information. Guys whose opinions you will want to seek out over there include Clawmaster, Tamalie, and Chitown Rich if he still posts there. There may be a few others but most of what I reaad on the AWA there is in the "boy they sucked, Verne was stoopid" range of opinion. Perhaps that's different in the WON HOF Forums as opposed to the regular board but I don't know. Alternately I may drag this stuff over to a private AWA forum I frequent, to get opinions and additional information. Anything I gather there I'll bring over here, of course.

One fo my all time favourite matches, and I would say there's about 5 minutes missing off the front. I'd love to see the other bout in full someday, the end run from it is fantastic.

Save for a possible TV squash or two, I think this is everything available on tape from Tito in the AWA. Listings are from my AWA Tito Comp I did a few years back: 2) The Tito Santana-Sheik Kaissie TV Sword Angle. **NOTE: I edited the version from an AWA PPV (in EX quality) with a regular TV version (not so great quality) to show as much of this as possible. Santana was Kaissie’s first target upon Sheik’s entrance into the AWA. (2:25, F/EX-) 3) Tito Santana vs. Sheik Adnan El-Kaissie (5/14/81, Winnipeg). Complete match in wake of the Sword Angle. (13:40, VG) 4) Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Tito Santana (5/13/82, Winnipeg, JIP around the 7 minute mark ). Santana challenges for the title in a really fun bout. (19:13, VG) 5) Tito Santana vs. Nick Bockwinkel (Minneapolis 3/1/81, JIP.) A “Top Contender” bout from Minneapolis. Verne Gagne was Champ at this time. (8:45, VG+) 6) A Tito Santana interview after a title challenge in Milwaukee (August 1981). Tito vows revenge against any and all members of the Heenan family in the wake of a loss to Nick Bockwinkel. (1:20, VG-) 7) Tito Santana vs. Bobby Duncum (3/25/82, Winnipeg, JIP). Tito taking on the Heenan family. (6:41, VG-/VG **some picture flash**) 8) Tito Santana vs. Ken Patera (11/5/81, Winnipeg, JIP). Another one vs. the Heenan family. (8:47, VG-/VG) 9) After the above bout, Tito attacks and Piledrives Bobby Heenan before Patera can save him. (1:05, VG+) 10) Tito Santana vs. Billy Robinson (9/24/81,Winnipeg, JIP). A good scientific bout with tempers a touch on edge. (10:55, VG+/EX-) 11) Greg Gagne/Jim Brunzell (AWA Tag Champs) vs. Tito Santana/Rick Martel (St. Paul, July 18 1982, JIP). We get 5 tremendous minutes of a 30 minute match. Great action! (5:10, VG/VG+) 12) Greg Gagne/Jim Brunzell (AWA Tag Champs) vs. Tito Santana/Rick Martel (St. Paul, August 29, 1982, JIP). The rematch is another stellar bout. (15:20, VG/VG+) BONUS BOUTS **I’ve included these bouts at the end of the DVD because they deserve to be here, but the VQ isn’t very good. a) Tito Santana vs. Sheik Kaissie (Minneapolis, 5/10/81). Short match, very similar to the Winnipeg bout except the beginning of the bout is done opposite of Winnipeg. They probably switched things up every other night as the match went town to town.) 5:11, F/G Tito Santana/Buck Zumhofe vs. Ken Patera/Bobby Duncum (AWA TV, 1982). Tito and Buck sign an open contact to get the bout on TV. Another great “broken boom-box” moment for Buck, and a big Hulk Hogan save at the end. 8:00, G/VG- c) Tito Santana vs. Jerry Blackwell (Winnipeg 12/11/80, JIP). Good bout. Some tremendous agility shown by Blackwell in a few spots. (12:17, F/VG-)

I think the turnaround late in the year is directly correlated to Verne selling to Blackjack and Bockwinkel (however that exactly worked). I also think people got used to watching the matches on TSN somewhat...there would have been no regional blackout for that show. If you knew that the card was "iffy", and that you could watch it over the course of a month on TSN (save for the odd match which didn't air, but most of them did), you might be likely to take a month or two off going to the shows and instead wait until you saw the talent level/booking rebound when they promoted it locally. TSN started in September of 1984, and the wrestling was a staple show from the start (I remember getting a converter box and a subscription to TSN and Muchmusic as a Christmas gift, lol). Eventually, I think it had an effect on business to a degree. So factors in the 1985 Winnipeg attendance downturn could possibly be attributed to (a) poor booking of debuting stars and established draws, (b ) All the matches airing on TSN shortly after the cards were held, © TVs being done the day before at times taking away from the big shows gate the next night, and (d) some WWF influx into the market, at least via TV at this point. For the other areas where attendance suffered a significant downturn, I would place (a) and (d) in the mix as primary factors, (a) being the most prevalent.

Verne certainly didn't help himself, no doubt. I think the numbers in Winnipeg did get better after the incredibly poor summer, however: May 1984: 3628 1985: 1900 June 1984: 2620 1985: 1864 July 1984: NO CARD 1985: 3224 August 1984: 5964 1985: 4208 (w/TV at High School) September 1984: 4708 1985: 3600 October 1984: 8920 1985: 3528 November 1984: 4376 1985: 6012 December 1984: 3584 1985: 5928 January 1985: 5685 (Arena TV) January 1986: 6800 It might be reasonable to assume that the lower 85 numbers vs. 84 for most of the year can be partially attributed to a lack of "new" star power. 84 had new face Blackwell, Brody, Bundy, Road Warriors debut and push, and new champ Martel, all very compelling "new" draws for the terroitory. 85 had the Freebirds, Garvin, Slaughter, Superstar and Zurkov as "new" draws..compelling, but not as much in my mind as the 84 newbies, both situationally and as in 'new wrestlers'. The 84 feuds and matchups were also much better, with stories that wrote themselves (Blackwell turns good! Will Bock regain the title from martel right away? Holy shit, look at The Road Warriors!). 85 had the Freebirds vs. The Old Men and Young Kids, Martel defending against Bockwinkel AGAIN, Martel vs. Zurkov (done well, but only really ever done here, probably because they didn't have the confidence in it to run it in other markets), The Roadies running out of real title challenges by year-end, and Slaughter vs. less-than-compelling foreign heels like Tonga and Saito. Verne brought in talent that should have worked, but how he matched them up in trying to build them wasn't good. Baron, Crusher, Larry Hennig, Buck Zumhofe, and other veterans of the area being used as fodder for the new guys did nothing for their buildup. Reed SHOULD squash Raschke. Even the die-hard AWA fan saw this, and when the old guys did well, even in losing, it didn't make you say "I wonder how a Martel-Reed matchup will go?" It made you say "The Irwins just got beat by Hennig and Zenk. The Roadies will CRUSH them." I hope my analogies are making sense. Add in the WWF product becoming more and more recognizable and viewable by the fans in the area (and the "wer're the best" branding taking hold in the fans minds, something the WWF did better than anyone, period), and I see the slip in attendance being multi-faceted. The numbers were mostly down but honestly the trends were similar to 84, just with smaller numbers. ..and make no mistake, losing Winnipeg after drawing so well in the last three months of their run there had to have really stung the AWA as a whole.

...but maybe it'll get Blackwell On the ballot!