jdw

I don't think their decline was due to workrate. Lots of other reasons that we've batted around in the past here and elsewhere. John

Yeah, very impressive. It's pretty insane to ponder how successful he got. ECW didn't get as successful as Onita. Think about that one. John

Not really. They were geared towards All Japan Fans, specifically in Japan. They did well with their own fans. Put them on the Dome show in April going 30:00 working a match that they could have fallen out of bed and done... and *nothing* on the card was more over with the 50K+ fans than that match. So clearly they crossed over to other fans outside "their own". In turn, Chono vs Hash on that card is something that probably could have played at Korakuen Hall infront of the hardest of the hardcore NJPW Fans of the era. It may have worked at Sumo Hall at G1... but wouldn't have driven the fans as nuts as the usual top G1 matches. In front of 50K cans, the top NJPW star of the generation and the top heel NJPW star of the era... laid an egg that the fans didn't really care for. So I think the AJPW workers were geared towards All Japan Fans, and to a larger degree Puroresu Fans in general. Why the longer matches? I think Baba liked that his guys could go long like the old days, it was something the other promotions couldn't do as well, and he seemed to be getting to the point of letting his guys do what they largely wanted to in terms of the ring. Take this match. Hase & Mutoh had just won the IWGP Tag Titles back. So let's set up the ideal opponents for them. Let's say Tenzan is too green for this example, and hadn't really started the Wolves with Chono so we won't use him. Hash & Hirata hasn't yet teamed, nor gotten their shit down together... so we won't use them. But we want to use Hash because he frankly is the best worker in New Japan. So we'll have to toss someone in with him as a make-shift team. Hase & Mutoh vs Hash & Sasaki or Hash & Koshinaka Well, Kosh is a favorite of a lot of folks from this period of NJPW, and pertty reliable in working a watchable match in the mid-90s. 1995 Sasaki might be at the level of pre-Carny 95 Taue right at the moment this match took place... so that might be more fair. So... Does anyone think that if you booked Hase & Mutoh to defend their IWGP Tag Titles in January 1995 at a mid-level card against either Hash & Sasaki or Hash & Koshinaka and told them to work a 60:00 draw that it would be at this level? There are things that I don't care for in this match... but being honest... Yeah, it's pretty insane to think that the NJPW boys could work this match. I'm not even sure that Hase & Mutoh & Hash vs Chono & Tenzan & Koshinaka going 30:00 at the Tokyo Dome in April could have matches what the AJPW boys did that night. I enjoyed the NJPW heavies more than most in the 90s, and if you look at my ballot over on the DVDVR it tends to show more respect for the heavies than the overall poll results got. But... no, they weren't at this level. That seemed to be what Baba wanted to show. John

I think Kevin and Jim could probably speak more on Gagne pushing himself, but I think it was less than folks may think from simply looking at the Title History. My recollection is that they've said that Bockwinkel & Stevens did a bit more of the heavy lifting as the promotional focus in 1972-75. In turn, Mad Dog dominated the AWA Title from 10/64 - 2/67 and there were essentially three tag teams going off on dominant runs: Crusher & Brusier, Hennig & Race, and the Vachons. Not trying to say that the AWA was a "tag team territory", but despite the long 1967-75 run with the title, it seemed like there were a lot of other major players getting massive pushes in the AWA. It doesn't quite seem like an Onita-centric FMW or a Rikidozan-centric JWA. John

That's how a Coaching Tree works. Corney learned from Dusty and Watts to a large degree, with some Memphis/Dundee in there. Dusty and Watts are Eddie Graham proteges. Cornette is part of Graham's "tree". What would be interesting would be who Graham learned from. Anyway, here is a good two part piece on NFL Coaching Trees, including the concept of "forests": http://www.sports-central.org/sports/2008/...e_2008_pt_1.php http://www.sports-central.org/sports/2008/...e_2008_pt_2.php His thoughts on Bill Walsh are interesting. In a sense Walsh is off a major Forest (Paul Brown) and off a tree (Al Davis) in one of the other major Forests (Sid Gillman). I'm not entirely sure that I'd fully agree with the author that Walsh's offense is closer to Davis' than Paul Brown's, but Walsh did lift bits and pieces from here and there. John

I don't think you're the only one who wasn't thrilled by this match. John

Agree on Onita. Similar to Rikidozan, he was a one-note promoter: push himself. While I think people like that deserve some credit and a place *somewhere* on the list of the Top 100 Promoters of All-Time... I don't think they crack into the uppermost reaches. Rikidozan does warrant props for getting pro wrestling over in a country, getting it over rather huge, and sustaining it for more than simply a few years. Onita does warrarnt props for building a promotion around himself in the face of two big national promotions and a third mens promotion that popped up and was red hot. He also pushed a style that was different to a degree from the Big 2, which is similar to what the UWF did to find their niche. FMW was also successful for more than just 2-3 years. Big props on those. But up there with Baba? No. FWIW, if we break Shinma away from Inoki, I'd have Shinma higher. New Japan, knowing what to do with Inoki's "Wrestler vs Martial Artist" storyline, junior division, influence of Lucha, a small share of the UWF credit, cultivating the generation below Inoki. The ability to get useful gaijin talent despite being aced out of the NWA deal was pretty well done all things considered. Someone picked off Kobayashi... then the IWE guys when it died. Choshu's turn? I think he'd be fairly high up. John

It's really simple: Bret was right. Vince was wrong. People twist themselves into knots trying to say otherwise, but it's really a Flat Earth type of issue. People who think Vince was right are the Flat Earthers. John

Is Dave also going to be on? Or did he pass the gig onto Bryan? John

I don't remember the Piss Shots airing in full, and I just watched that season within the past two months. The piss fruit and jizz sushi were fully aired. FWIW, if folks haven't watched those earlier seasons in some time, it's pretty damn fun to watch the dvds with none BLEEPS in there. Dana is fucking great. John

So do people snorting coke. That doesn't mean it's good for them. John

Dusty was a great talker. If you're a heel fan in 1986 with Dusty talking about Dusty, the other faces talking about Dusty, Crockett & Tony talking about Dusty, all the heels talking about Dusty, damn near the whole thing revolving around Dusty (vs Flair, vs Ole, vs Arn, vs Tully, vs The Horsemen in General, with Maggie vs The MX, holding the goddamn Six-Man title with the Warriors to even get a fucking rub that way!)... You fucking hated Dusty. Hated him on your TV. Hated him wrestling. Hated that every heel you liked was bumping and selling and stooging their ass off for him. Hated him on the mic. O'Reily is the greatest consistent ratings draw in Cable News. He's a douchebag conservative. I'm a Dirty Fucking Hippy liberal. So I hate him on my TV. Dusty was to JCP in 1986 & 1987 as O'Reily is to Cable News. That said, my quote above is a fair representation of what I think about him: "Dusty... I always hated Dusty on the mic until the WWE's Dusty DVD came out and I got to see him far removed from my hate of him." I only appreciated his mic work when the Dusty DVD came out from the WWE. How many years ago was that? John

I wouldn't rate a "star/promoter" over a straight promoter in a comp with Lutteroth or Vince. I don't think building a promotion around your own massive star power, then dying before it's time to find a replacement, is as impressive as building up a massive promotion like EMLL *without* being the anchor star. I might have Rikidozan in the Top 10... but I'd have to think more about it. I'm just not as impressed as much by what he did as say Baba did over 25+ years: * create a break away promotion that became #1 * killed off the prior #1 * fight a successful decades long war with another rival for #1 * seamlessly transition a replacement to you as the Ace * withstand the departure of one native rival to your Ace * withstand the departure of second native rival to your Ace * develop a third generation of stars after the second Ace falls away There isn't anything terribly exciting about what he did, but it was very impressive in total. Granted... other smaller promoters in the US delt with similar stuff... well... perhaps not many did the first three things. Not pimping Baba for #1. I would rate him above Inoki and Rikidozan, though. Rikidozan didn't live long enough to deal with most of what Baba did, and Inoki largely ignored it since he was consumed by pushing himself. One wonders if New Japan would have had as successful run in the 1990s if Inoki hadn't gotten himself elected to the Sangiin / House of Councillors in 1989. John

Taue. John

I don't look forward to him being asked to bump or take stunt spots. John

Of course Vince is #1. Took a big regional promotion and turned it into a massive national promotion, leading to all of the competition dying off eventually. Eventually $400M+ a year in revenue. Started the national push in 1984... it's 2012 now, so we're close to 30 years. They've been #1 for all but arguably 1-2 years of that period. That's pretty massive. There's a lot to say about how he's changed the business, for better or worse. But he has changed it. Of course Choshu has negatives. Any as big of negative impact on pro wrestling as Inoki's: * Ogawa vs Hash II * MMA over Pro Wrestling John

What in the hell is Naylor doing down there? I thought he was a pbp guy. They've got him doing ring announcing and now this stuff? John

Jack Curley should be added if people are talking about Toots. I'm not even sure Toots warrants being all that highly rated, other than in his own mind. I suspect Lutheroth warrants being #2. Sam Muchnick is kind of a different beast as a promoter, since it's less his promotion/territory that warrants him high on the list but instead his ability to leads / keep together the cartel of other promoters. The Inoki vs Baba thing... I'm not sure it's a lock for Inoki. Is it clear that Inoki kicked his ass in the 70s, other than the Ali thing? I'm not sold on that. While Inoki "won" 1981-84, did he win the rest of the decade in clear fashion? I'm not sure about 1980, we know he didn't in 1985-86, and if you read the WON and JWJ, it's not as though business went through the roof when Choshu & Co jumped back. Business in 1988 wasn't gangbusters, and despite the Dome in 1989, the hot company was UWF 2.0. In turn, Baba was study, got a Choshu spike, and then the Revolution was study. 90s? I don't think we can credit *any* of NJPW's success to Promoter Inoki. Choshu was effectively in charge during all of the high points. So the 90s are 0 for Inoki in NJPW, while All Japan had a long successful run before the slow decline. It's safe to say that Baba kicked Inoki's ass more in the 90s than Inoki beat up Baba in 1981-84. A Choshu-Baba comp in the 90s would be different, but that's not the issue. Wait... did I say "0" for Inoki? 01/04/99 Shinya Hashimoto NC Naoya Ogawa (6:58) Ah... that's right. Just before Baba died, Inoki helped start the feud that would destroy the most valuable New Japan wrestler of the generation. Negative billion business stars for Inoki in the 90s from just that. Inoki did have some non-pro wrestling success by gloaming onto the MMA craze. To be honest, does anyone think he had a *positive* impact on that in a Promoter role? Okay, then set aside a chunk of the 70s because Inoki was the "wrestler" / "star", while a lot of the promotional / business decisions were made by folks like Shinma. A Big Chunk. Inoki has "impact", but it was as an actor / pro wrestler nailing stuff that the front office came up with him. Even Hisa pointed to the Ali deal as being likely a Shinma deal rather than an Inoki deal. I don't want to say that Inoki was the George W. Bush / Rick Perry of New Japan... but... He was the George W. Bush / Rick Perry of New Japan. As a "promoter" / "front office" guy, I'd actually rate Choshu higher. He elevated the next generation of stars. If the business hadn't begun to go in the crapper partially due to MMA and partially due to Inoki, I think it's likely that he would have cultivated another generation to be ready to take the Three Musketeers place. John

Jumping around like a big goofball, Ellering looks like a cross between Jesse Ventura and Jim Powers. John

Obviously New Japan has zero chance of doing business over here. Hence the: "That's not what I mean!" -Dave It's just fun to poke at the poor choice of words. John

Are those things on Youtube? John

"That's not what I mean!" -Dave

I sure hope Dave doesn't drive a Lexus or a Accura. John