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Did the Rock's movie success play a factor in his HOF induction? None. John

I'm obviously knowledgable about Doc's All Japan, and I found the obit/bio pretty lacking in how it dealt with that core period of his career. I suspect that folks who were knee deep in the Watts Mid-South/UWF project, or have even watch most of the mass of Mid-South/UWF tv that has come widely and easily available over the past 5 or so years, would probably find the Mid-South section pretty lacking / glossed over. I never was super enthused about Doc's as a HOF candidate. But I'm also not going to cry over it. Kind of a Murdoch of Japan type. I think Gordy as an individual candidate was a vastly better candidate, and folks never got around to voting him in and instead had to drag him in with the Birds. I think if you stack the two of them against each other, wouldn't everyone agree that as an individual candidate: Gordy > Doc Or that it's not terribly close? John

Given what we know about the business, the 6% is "low" for how many people probably need it. So I don't see anything surprising with the number. The number of former WWE talent that are addicts is likely considerably higher. That not all of them come forward and ask for help / take up the offer isn't terribly surprising to any of us who've dealt with addiction, either our own or with people we know. Don't see anything surprising with the WWE putting it up, either. They have touted the program. What they put up "makes them look good" in the sense of how widely they are offering the program and that they are "serious" about it. There is an interesting contrast here, though: (1) "We're not responsible for anyone who dies who is not with the WWE." and (2) "We're willing to help former WWE'ers who are addicted." On the first,the WWE has often gone to the point that they aren't even responsible for those who drop dead on their watch like Eddy. I don't think that we can take (2) as an admission that they think (1) doesn't fly. But one does get the sense that when launching the program that they were getting tired of taking blame for the Dead Wrestler List Of Doom, and that by creating this specific aspect of the program, they wanted to be able to balance out the Blame with a We're Trying. Of course I'm cynical, this is the WWE we're talking about, so there usually is reason for being cynical. I'd balance the cynicism about the origin of the program with the fact that over time, it has a chance of doing good... at least for some who turn around. John

The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. I'd also add that Doc's obit/bio is interesting in the sense that it spends far more time on his non-pro wrestling stuff than it does on what one would think got him voted into the HOF: his All Japan run. I'd hate to do a word count or paragraph count on it. It just runs out of steam in that stretch. That's too bad, because again: it's the reason he's a HOF candidate and in. Reading the piece, one really gets no support for the case that he's a HOFer. John

I'm going to say what I said when this came up the last time: Don't know if people need me to be clearer. I can be: Dave didn't think she was a HOFer even before I didn't think she was a HOFer. He really, and strongly, didn't want her in *his* HOF. She never was on the original HOF class list: * Dave didn't have an "original class" written out in advance of us winging through the magazine * he didn't think she was in the second her name came up and was negative towards her * he sure as hell didn't talk to me about candidates after he flew back before I did and wrote up the piece The last is how and when people got on the list: Dave talking with other folks after he got back. I'd add: * Dave needs to remember that he put folks in the Hall in 1997 If he had remorse about being talked out of putting Moolah in the HOF, and took any serious grief over it during the next year that he truly gave a shit about, he could easily have put her into the HOF in 1997. After all, that what he did with several people that we frankly made an error on. Fact is: he didn't give a shit about the Moolah complaints at the time, and strongly didn't want her in the HOF. Beats the shit out of me why he wants to bury the fact that he thought she had no business being in. But if the sole thing about the HOF that he wants to give me credit for is keeping Moolah out, I guess I should be happy about it. Moolah has always been a fucking joke of a candidate. John

Dave handled it by putting Sr back on the ballot next year. It's a round about way to deal with it. John

Kind of the "win" that I expected when clicking on the link: Angle kicks the living shit out of him (despite looking like a shell of himself), then turns around to deal with an annoying ref, and eats a Super Kick. I'm not sure is anything spells out "You Really Aren't Champ Worthy" than stuff like that. Post match was a strange DDP/Stone Cold/Sandman thingy. At first it seemed like a more genuine / less contrived version of DDP's go into the crowd, as he seeks out the sign. But then he pretty much zones out on the fans, ignores the various fans who want to high five him on the way back to the ring... and I'm back in the DDP Zone... except DDP would often at least fake that he gave a shit about the fans who gave enough of a shit about him to want to high five him. Beer splashing in the ring... eh. Not saying the whole thing sucked post match. It's better than a lot of fake emotional celebrations. But it wasn't off the charts. Match, though, pretty much sucked rocks. John

On Dixie, the only thing that isn't out there already that you could possibly see worrying her would be Dixie banging the shit out of workers, such as Jeffey. There are rumors, but Dixie is married (to the point that her loser husband has been sucking at the TNA tit as well). But that's about the only thing... unless Nash has done lines with her, and she doesn't want that out. Who the fuck knows. I'd go back to the point I alluded to: Nash isn't one to completely torch a bridge of a potential future payday. One suspects he knows that it's possible for his time in the WWE to once again be short term. If that ended up being the case, there's little chance that he'd not want to have the ability to con Dixie out of more cash. My thought is that if this rumor started with Nash, it's simply Nash talking out of his ass to but himself over. Yet again. John

So Nash threatened to say what it already public knowledge? I'm... not getting it. Or did Nash say he'd be a witness in any number of lawsuits against TNA? That... doesn't sound like Nash. He's not one to torch a potential future paycheck so badly. John

We're a long way from it. The guy speaking is the prez of Suddenlink, which doesn't have a pot to piss in when it comes to the big picture: 22,525,000 Comcast Corporation 19,433,000 DirecTV 14,056,000 Dish Network Corporation 12,235,000 Time Warner Cable, Inc. 4,838,000 Cox Communications, Inc. 4,413,000 Charter Communications, Inc. 3,848,000 Verizon Communications, Inc. 3,407,000 AT&T, Inc. 3,284,000 Cablevision Systems Corporation 2,139,000 Bright House Networks LLC 1,274,000 Suddenlink Communications 1,139,000 Mediacom Communications Corporation 680,000 Insight Communications Company, Inc. 637,000 CableOne, Inc. 421,000 WideOpenWest Networks, LLC 338,000 RCN Corp. 263,000 Knology Holdings 261,000 Atlantic Broadband Group, LLC 243,000 Armstrong Cable Services 219,000 Service Electric Cable TV Incorporated 205,000 Midcontinent Communications 185,000 MetroCast Cablevision 173,000 Blue Ridge Communications 147,000 General Communications 141,000 NewWave Communications If you ever see TWC & Comcast say something along these lines, they'll just be saying it to put some pressure on ESPN/Disney, the NFL Network, the Big 10 Network and Fox. TWC is part of Time Warner, which has dozens of channels that they are getting a subscriber fee for off being on Basic. Comcast just bought NBC Universal because they smell the future: being able to charge Basic Fees for the Big 4 Networks... and they smell more $$$ than ESPN is currently rolling in. TW and Comcast don't want to see the system go to a la cart: they have a vested interest in preventing that. Combined, they have 36.0% of the households. I think we've talked about this before that it's highly likely that all of the large pieces on this board will merge into the following laps: Cable: Comcast & TW Telecoms: Verizon & ATT Dish: Direct/Dish There will be some minnows, but those will be the big boys. I don't think anyone of us would be surprised if Direct and Dish merge sometime in out lifetimes, especially if the Telecoms continue to bleed off subs. Eventually, Verizon and ATT will wisely agree to buy one of the Cable companies each and roll those services into their own, grabbing both content and households at the same time. It's even possible that before that point, Verizon & ATT will go the route that Comcast already did: buy a major content provider. Disney and CBS are still out there... Disney perhaps less than CBS where Rudstone is an old man not long for the world. Still, Disney and CBS are small compared to the telecoms. Anyway, other than the Dish companies, in the long term it won't be in the interest of the Big Boys (Comast & TW) and their likely eventual buyers or buyers of other channels (ATT & Verizon) to see a la cart. They have too great of an incentive to *not* lower the price to the customers. We're in an era of looting. It doesn't help to loot to lower the prices of services we all want where the costs are buried. John

I'm also interested in the first half of that: "MMA has had commercial success at the fake level." That has to mean that: Pro Wrestling = MMA in this fashion: Pro Wrestling = Fake MMA Pro Wrestling = (Fake) MMA Pro Wrestling = MMA John

From the WON, not exactly Pritchard related, but certainly TNA: So what is "the truth about" Dixie? John

I think a majority of streamers are like Funk: folks who would otherwise *not* buy the PPV's. So does the UFC think 1,000,000 people are streaming, of which 100K would otherwise be dropping a dime on *every* show? $50 x 16 events = $800 Perhaps it might dawn on Dave that those 100K people aren't buying every PPV because... um... we're in a near-depressions and... er... People Got No Money? John

So McAdam seems to have deleted his "walk off" post. John

'92 Rumble absolutely holds up in my view. A variety of subplots, lots of star power leading to pairings we don't normally see, and a below-average amount of deadwood. In general they aren't high-end matches, but in terms of being interesting to watch live and a PPV draw it's one of the best gimmicks. I enjoyed it live when it happened. Bored the shit out of me the last time I watched it, which was within the past two years. John

I love Vince vs Stone Cold in that Rumble. I'd also thought Rumbles sucked cock for ages before that. Rather than keep the numbers low so people can work and you can track what's going on, they'd just bog down, filling up with bodies, waiting for the Big Guy to come in and throw a bunch of people out. You'd see it year after year after year... same old shit. It got to be a painful match to watch. Even the "great ones", like 1992, don't really hold up as being any good. Probably the most overrated gimmick concept in history: Royal Rumbles. It's too bad the Survivor Series concept crapped out, largely because the WWF didn't know how to book it and wanted to protect folks from even doing job if freaking tag team matches. A well done Survivor Match runs circles around a Rumble concept. John

I'm willing to bet that if I pop in a complete Aja or Bull or Dump match, we'll see some "I Have To Ignore The Rules Here". Pretty confident I'd see it in Hokuto vs Kandori as well. It's just an accepted part of AJW. John

McManus did fairly well. Probably will go in next year. Overall, looking at the people with 40%+, we're going to see a TON of people going in over the coming years. John

Should have guess Iaukea given the bizzaro "region" he was put in. John

Yeah... that was an odd moment on his part. Clearly looking over to the corner for the CM run in, but Mask using a handle isn't remotely the same as McAdam using a socko after leaving a ton of his customers in the lurch. John

To add to Bix's point... Bret agreed to drop the title. Vince actually agreed with Bret on dropping the title, and when. And got WCW to allow Bret to stay on to do it. Bret never said "I'm never going to drop the title". He agreed to drop the title. He offered up a number of reasonable ways to drop the title. Several of which Vince at various times said he agreed with as the way to go. The two (along with lawyers getting involved if I recall a certain letter/fax that went to Bret before Montreal that Dave has referenced) came up with more than one reasonable ways to do it. In the end, Vince fixated on one thing: Shawn beating Bret for the title, and then doing it in Montreal. People are grasping at straws. John

Odd thread. John

I thought Brian was quite good at it. People tend to over do it in the past 10 years, but Brian was really good at it. I don't think Brian was the as big of a "creator" of it as people think. If you look back at Nick Patrick from the same era, and even before Brian started showing up on TV, you'll see Nick "selling" moves and punches and other things. I'd have to go back and watch WCW stuff again (which I have no desire to do! ) and put some thought on why Brian got more attention from us about it rather than Nick, but it really is something that's right there on the screen with Nick as well... and the last time I was paying attention to it, Nick was doing it even before the heel turn (where he got over the top having fun selling). I think in general, Brian is a good example of what you'd want in a ref. Not saying that he was perfect in there, but he was very good, very attentive to what was going on rather than sleep walking through it, and played his role well. Kind of an Arn Anderson of refs: very good, really solid, a pro. I suspect he could have fit quite well into being a ref in earlier eras in promotions where they didn't care about size. Wada was obviously a guy I loved. Part of it was the era I started watching in, and he defined great ref work for me. I suspect there were NJPW refs who were solid, and frankly did more of a job of "getting out of the way". Wada sold the shit you were watching. Guy knocked goofy and flat on the mat, Wada would check, see that he was fucked up, and get the attention of the opponent who might also be fucked up with that hand wag of: "Hey! Get the fuck over here and cover him!" Great stuff. He had a lot of little touches like that. He'd zone out of focus for stretches, and when it would come his time to add a little accent to the match, he'd deliver it. In a sense, Wada was something of "salt" to those AJPW dishes. The workers were all the great fresh quality ingrediants... but you even watch Top Chef and here the judges say: "Good dish, but did you check for salt? It could have used some." And the chefs smack themselves in the head for fucking up. That was Wada. Just a little extra salt to help draw out the flavors of those great ingrediants. We've seen a shitload of refs who salt and salt and salt and salt.... and that sucks as well. AJW had a really great ref or two. Too a degree they had to do the "I Have To Ignore The Rules Here" simply because that's the way AJW worked in a style that was Indy before Indy. But when things got down to business and they could simply ref, they were quite good. I have a soft spot for Tirantes, though I know a lot of people who hate him. Go to shows live and see some potentially medicore matches get *carried* by Tirantes, and you know that he can be great when needed to be. He of course is a ref who can be over salted in a match, but I tend to think that's far more the Wrestlers/Bookers who are having him do that as opposed to him going off on his own script. But some of the best stuff I've seen is Tirantes simply cleaning the ring of paper cups when a Technico has a Rudo covered by a rather pedestrian spot that would have gotten little heat for a normal count... suddenly has molten heat because Tirantes is fucking over the face. And of course Tommy Young was great. John

On the "bad" side... I never cared for Joe, even his "vintage" stuff in the 70s. Whether I'd rate him as "bad", I don't know. I just don't think he was great, and found him annoying as shit to watch. David Manning sucked. He seemed to think he was a Von Erich, and one of the top babyfaces in the promotion. He just regularly got in the way of stuff in the ring by imposing himself into the match. He also no sold for heels left and right. Just a cocksucker. Bronko sucked as well, as much for his physical nature rather than being an asshole like Manning. Dick Worley in the WWF in Philly was another jerkoff who imposed himself into matches, and no sold for the heels. He had the skills to be a good ref, and often was... but the no selling and putting himself over was annoying. I'm not terribly fond of Hebner, and would be hard pressed to think of anything about Hebner that comes to mind if asked, "What did he do well". If he were the WWF's #3 ref in the salad days, no one would think a thing about him. Fame is the only reason he would come up on a list of great refs because he really didn't do much "value added" to matches in the salad days, and often looked like a fool in there. I really don't like ROH's #1 ref, Todd Sinclair. Part of it is because Modern Wrestling forces all refs to basically be Total Fucking Idiots by ignoring all of the shit that happens right infront of them. But if I'm forced to count up the number of Dumb Ass Referee Things in a card of matches Sinclair does compared to a card of matches say PWG's top ref does, Sinclair rings up far more. It goes beyond the simple "I'm Got To Find Ways To Ignore The 10/20 Count Because These Fucking Wrestlers Won't Come Back In" bullshit that every ref has to deal with because wrestlers these days flat out don't give a fuck. It's all sorts of other stuff Sinclair will do that are stupid. You may think I'm being hard there, but I've been going to wrestling live for a quarter century. I've never lost my voice yelling at a ref for being a constant fuck up... Except for Sinclair. The first ROH show that I went to back east. Then the second. The third ROH show I went to back east, I made a point of not shredding my voice. To the point where late in the show the first time I yelled at one of his fuck up, my girlfriend pointed out to the Torch writer infront of us: "John hates Sinclair." In a sense, I feel sorry for modern refs. They really have to look like idiots in there, as modern wrestlers don't give them any excuse for not seeing stuff, and for the most part just do shit right infront of them. John

So it strikes me as "made as mistake in removing the wrong guy" rather than "arbitrarily removed". John