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I'm not trying to declare victory. Looking at the responses from others, every time you try to further "explain" your point (and it gets further removed from what you wrote), it seems like several people jump in to point out you're talking nonsense. I'm having flashbacks. John

Depends over the years: * takes written notes, then type something up * type as I go along: editing, adding, deleting, revising as the match evolves and at times needing to rewind to double check things * watch it then wing it with comments afterwards I'll often watch something a second time before rambling about it, as the first time might be at a tape get together or at a point where I have just enough time to watch and not really take notes or write. There certainly are plenty of times where I'm lazy in it just winging, and other times where I take far too much time for what it's really worth. The amount of time that I took on the Briscos vs. Adonis & Murdoch was pretty ridiculous for a match that I didn't think much of. Never was into the dictaphone thing. John

Sabu left because of New Japan money, not because he broke down. He also would have left at any point after his "return" if WCW or the WWF offered him a long term deal. Awesome left before he broke down because WCW offered him more than Paul. Dreamer never was "replaced" because he "broke down". He was pushed by Paul until the end. He certainly was a mess, but Paul didn't case him aside. Kronus... beats the fuck out of me. He probably would have been pushed until the end of ECW if Saturn hadn't left for greener greenbacks in WCW. Paul did continue to try to push Kronus, rebranding him with New Jack. Kronus left for XPW. I do agree Mikey Whipreck was a throw away, and always was. Spike Dudley was another. Heyman didn't push the ECW "brand" because he knew he was running people into the grave or DL. In fact, back in the day Heyman would have denied up and down that he was doing that. Instead he was putting over the brand because at any moment those ingrates like Sabu could turn traitor at any moment. "You sold out!" "Fuck Sa-bu!" Paul didn't dispose of them. He used their departure to put the Promotion up on the Cross, sold out by a bunch of Judases to Pontus Bischoff (and Caesar Vince) for forty gold pieces. To take out of Benoit's time in ECW that the point was ECW was about throwing away wrestlers and that had something to do with Benoit is missing reality. ECW was a stepping stone for a generation of wrestlers to try to get cash and/or a chance in the big time from Vince or Eric. John

As Loss says, all four were "singles stars". Barry & Dustin were just forming their partnership, which alway seemed to have the point of breaking up. I'm not 100% certain in the eyes of NWA/WCW fans that Barry was "lower ranked" than Rude. Rick was the "top heel" in the company, but that was largely by default at that moment - there were not Top Heels. In contrast, the company was loaded with Top Faces: Sting, Steamer and Barry had all been legendary challengers to Flair, two of them beating Rick for the title while the third looked like Ric's heir at one point. Even NWA/WCW fans who followed the WWF wouldn't have thought Rude was any bigger. Setting aside Rick's time in Von Erich land since NWA/WCW hardcore fans thought it was a minor territory relative to their no national one: * Barry won the WWF Tag Titles (1985) before Rude won the NWA Tag Titles (1986), and of course Barry later added an NWA Tag Title win with Lex on a major show (Clash I in 1988) * Barry was a major World Title challenger (1987 in Crockettville) before Rude was (1990 in the WWF opposite Warrior). * Barry won the #2 title in the NWA (US Title in 1988) before Rude did the same in the WWF (1989). * the belt that currently was making Rude a Top Star (the US Title won in 1991) was one Barry won back in 1988 It was just a unique thing in the NWA/WCW where they had a period of no other established top heel between Luger going on vacation in late 1991 (and then leaving in early 1992) and Vader regaining the title at the end of 1993 for his run on top where he got truly established at a top heel. On Austin vs. Dustin... Austin had the TV Title, so he kinda-sorts "won" the feud with Dustin. But if you recall how they were being pushed under Dusty's booking, Dustin was getting pushed down our throats. They were pushed very much as peers, but Austin was the Dusty-style heel while Dustin was Dusty #2 getting screwed out of the title. I thought Barry & Dustin vs. Rude & Austin was a pretty straight up match up, where Dustin could get his payback for not winning the TV title. John

I thought Barry & Dustin going over was kind of obvious at the time. It seemed like a lock that Gordy & Williams were going to the Final after taking out the Steiners on the Clash. The only true face side in the bottom bracket was Barry & Dustin. The other teams were Rude & Austin, the Birds and Hashimoto & Hase. To me the one upset of the tourny was Hash & Hase winning, and it was a minor one. The Birds would have given a more natural Hell-Face match up in the semi, so that gave them a slightly better chance of being the winners. But Watts & Co. gave New Japan a bone of having someone in the semis, which would match the one WCW wrestler to make the semis of the NWA Title tourny during the G1 in August. I would have said that was a 60-40 match with the Birds somehow cheating to get the win. Vader over Sting was a major upset. It quickly became obvious as to "why" - Simmons getting pushed to the moon. It was obvious from just those first two months of Watts that he was going to push Simmons hard to try to recapture that JYD mojo. I had thought that Simmons might get pushed opposite Rude because the Rude-Steamer was over, since chasing the US Title against what was at the time the clear top heel in the company seemed like the perfect means to get Simmons over. In hindsight, I think it would have been the better route to go: keep the pressure off Simmons of having to be the man on top carrying things, and instead put him in the "co-main". Obviously I was wrong in how far to the moon Watts would push Ron. John

This sounds right. The times I saw Nancy around Dave (including in a lucha swing that likely was the one where that the lucha story about her sprung up), she knew Dave and spoke with hin, but not a great deal compared to others he normally would talk to. Of course everyone said Chris was an introvert, so reading how he stood with anyone was hard. But their relationship wasn't frosty when they were together, and Chris would certainly talk to him in that reserved Chris way. Eddy was the opposite - much more the extrovery by 1995, though of course still having that shadow of Art over him that could send him into meloncholy pretty fast. Sounds right. Dave and Madden. John

I'm not sure Dave would consider Benoit a "friend", which isn't a term Dave through around very much. I also don't think Benoit was a guy high on the scale of those inside the business that he talked to on a regular, weekly/daily basis. In the sense of a Konnan or a Heyman when Dave talked to them regularly. Pillman is someone he was much closer to, as he's written quite a bit over the years. It was a death that hit home with him. That said, Dave knew how far gone Brian was down the stretch. He knew it *at the time*. It may not have come across in the weekly reporting of the WON prior to Brian's death, but Dave knew. He told me enough of it that the death didn't surprise me at all, and I'm sure from what he's written since that he didn't tell me a third of it. I don't think Dave is overly defensive about someone writing about Brian's issues. He might feel the need to correct what's a bit off or wrong, but he long ago decided not to write Brian as a saint. John

Didn't think so. Yep. Seen that ages ago. Don't recall who had it that I saw it, and the angle/interviews from: Barnett, Munrai Tape, or Hoback. Honestly... didn't think much of the match then, and probably would think less of it now. They just aren't that good of a match up. I'd rather watch them talk about each other than wrestle each other. John

September 30, 1985 in Memphis, TN Mid-South Coliseum drawing 9,496 NWA World Champ Ric Flair beat Jerry Lawler via DQ

"Heyman was one of the first to recognize wrestlers as the disposable commodities they are. He pushed them to the brink of their physical well being and when they couldn't continue at that pace, he replaced them with someone else." Reads more like Paul pushed them to the brink, the fell apart ("they couldn't continue at that pace"), and Paul pitched them overboard ("replaced them") to push someone who could. Which isn't what Paul was doing, or what was happening to Paul. Other than the fact that he had to keep coming up with people to push because the wrestlers left. Honestly... does anyone think that Chris, Eddy, Dean, Rey, Psic and Juve left because they couldn't keep up with how Paul was pushing them? Or because of the $$$? When Austin passed through ECW, did he leave because he couldn't keep up? Or $$$? Set aside Foley's worked reasons for leaving. It was the cash potential of the WWF he left for. And on and on. John John

Backlund vs. Ivan has been around for a while. I'm sure McAdam had it out there forever. Frank made it one of his keynotes in the Backlund & More tape, pairing it with Bruno vs. Ivan from 3/79. Looking at my Pegasus archive, it looks like Frank sent that tape out initially in September 2003, and that tape got resonably well circulated for a non-shilled item. Bob vs. Valentine is a good answer. That was a Holy Grail, and given how much *hasn't* come out that you think would (such as Bob vs. Harley, or the Bob vs. Muraco 60 draw in MSG), it's pretty amazing this got out there. Doing it as a standalone match at that length rather than tying it to an MSG card... it's beyond amazing. One could only think that Greg spoke highly of it around the time he went into the HOF. They couldn't put it on the HOF DVD, so they tossed it out there. I can't think of any other reason they would have done it. John

Odd paragraph, since Snowden was around for it. It would be interesting to draw up a chart of the wrestlers who were: * "disposable commodities" that Paul disposed of when they couldn't keep pace * wrestler who left to go somewhere else for more money Since the paragraphs wraping around it relate to *Benoit*, we're thematically talking about someone who fell into the second category. Which gets to the primary reason Paul emphasized brand over wrestlers: He couldn't keep the wrestlers from leaving. Even the ones under contract. So he had to push brand. That's not to say the mentality Snowden mentions doesn't exist in some form in pro wrestling. But it's a misread of ECW, and Benoit himself in a key example of why. John

I've seen both the matches from the 1975 Open League. Bob has them on Frank's comp of the Open League: http://www.bobbarnett.com/catalog/product_...products_id=588 Nothing that would surprise you. From the same series, this is the true Holy Grail: 11/27/75 NWA Int'l Tag: Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dick Murdoch & Dusty Rhodes (13:27, 8:00, 4:50) John

The MMA vs. Pro Wrestling stuff remains a hoot several years after Pride died. "Talking out of your ass" is great as well, and I suspect it wasn't too long after the Jumbo Stealing The Belt From Flair thread. I love how the Flair-Sid vs. Hogan-Piper story changes from one thread to the next. Yeah, the links help since there are times where people go back and forth with Dave. At times he comes off well in goofy threads. Other times, not so well. John

Let me clarify something on this. Dimaggio made on on the third ballot actually. He started receiving votes his first offseason after retirement. Of the players on the 1953 ballot (Dimaggio's first), 40 of them eventually reached the Hall of Fame. It wasn't that voters considered Dimaggio unworthy. It was that the ballot was too crowded. It's a small point, irrelevant really, but it's often used. And Ted Williams was first ballot. Dave's knowledge of HOF's other than his own has always been pretty piss poor. John

Agree with everyone who says he would have taken better care of his shape. Being born in 1975 rather than 1945, he probably would have been taller and more athletic as well. He was a great talker in the 70s: A+ material, and I don't know of anyone other than probably Lawler who was at that level. Don't see why he wouldn't have been an even better talker having come up now, other than being stiffled by Creative. Charismatic as all shit. Agree with Bix - he looked like a good heel worker. I suspect that the weight and early bumping did a number on his body, hence the later lack of bumping once he was a babyface icon writing his own ticket. My guess is that he would have been a bigger star than Foley, and probably up their with Rock and Austin. He just had "it", and probably even more desire (ego) to be a star than any of those three. And it's not like those three didn't have a ton of desire. I became a wrestling fan hating Dusty in Crocketville. I still can't stand watching his matches from that era as they bring back bad memories. But when you watch him on the mic in the 70s, and see some of his heel stuff from the early 70's, you have to admit that he has the mojo. John

Hell... I don't recall a time when Lano was in Dave's inner circle. Lano was a nut as far back as I can recall, and was pretty much was introduced to me as a nut. Lano basically glommed himself into various circles, whether is was part of it or not. Dave seemed cheesed by other things relating to Lano than helping spread the Debbie story. I don't think I said Lano called while they were banging. Only that Lano would be more than likely to "confirm" the "story" if one cared to ask him. I guess I've been around enough wrestling telling a story unsolicited that they "believed" which wasn't to take things with a grain of salt. I've had the equiv of people telling me "The Sky Is Purple" with a straight face, and half them actually believing it when they said it. I'm sure you have as well, Bix, when dealing with wrestlers. I'm not saying that Benoit wasn't bat shit crazy. No doubt that he was. My point is to simply take Matt's book with the same grain of salt we apply to all Wrestling Stories. It's a worked world, and even when people are "shooting" they usually aren't. John

Dave stuff in the Ole thread was classic. John

I suspect Dave still runs into it occassionally. It's just that very few people know who Debbie is these days since she's been so long removed from the business. John

Eh. The reality of the business is that it's a work. Stories born of that "reality" have largely been bullshit, back to first part of the last century. They really aren't anymore "believable" now than they were then. Nor "unbelieveable". That remains my point. Many widely believed things coming out of the business are works. Many of them are works by people so deluded that they think that their own work is true. Many people in the business buy into the works because it fits into what they want to believe. Apply your normal bullshit detectors and doubt that you apply to just about everything else in radar to this as well. John

Understood. That is the way of pro wrestling. I've sat/stood next to Meltzer when false stories independantly confirmed 5-6 times in a week's trip to Japan. By the third time we heard them, they became a running joke. "Stories" in pro wrestling are like a virus - they spread. Usually rapidly. Some of them are true. Many of them are bullshit. Everyone on the board who has heard the story about Dave banging Debbie Malenko raise their hands. It was a bullshit story, but it had legs for years. In fact, more than a decade and a half by now if there are people out there who still buy it. You that you can find "multiple sources" to "confirm" it. Lano would be the first. Then you only need one more. That's the way of pro wrestling stories. They're worked in every direction. My point above was to not lose your jaded nature towards the business simply because we've moved over into the other extreme "We Want To Believe" scale - that it's the sleazist business around. It's best to remain jaded and pessmistic about all of it, just as one should have been about the rah-rah bullshit. John

Quick thoughts without having read the book: I like that Matt found another roman numeral to add to his name. I think we now have two extremes of the "I Want To Believe" mentality that is par for the course among wrestling fandom. We all know the old fanboy side of it where folks wanted to believe the best in all their Heros, or at least that the sleaze related to them was harmless "boys being boys" fun. I think we've now got the other side where people know the business is a shithole, so just about any story is credible. They know the business is shit, so they want to believe as much crap thrown at the wall as possible. Back in the day, that was the Lano extreme, and the stories he bounced around were true at times, and we pure bullshit at times. It's still a working business. People in it lie, make shit up, or just falt out misread stuff and come up with a "story" to explain what they think they're seeing. People on the outside remain extremely receptive to the stories that play to which side of the "We Want To Believe" extreme they're on. You hate Hogan, so you'll lap up the stuff of Hogan's nuttiness. You love Flair, and you'll end up buying the Madden-style nonsense that Ric was just up to "boys will be boys" stuff. Lawler's taste in young pussy offends you, and you'll buy 100% of the stories tossed out on it... when maybe 25% of them are from someone who just hates the shit out of him and it making crap up. Point: I would approach the book like we tend to approach so much about the business: with a grain of salt. Matt may have "busted his ass" on the book. He may be a good guy vouched for by people who knew him better than those of us who thought he was a goofy, gulible wrestling fan. That doesn't mean that he's not beyond being worked by his "sources", anymore than the rest of us. Or that he's not willing to eat up a "story" that apeals to him or his theme that is bullshit. It's a "wrestling book". Even the "best" of them tend to be fucked up in various ways, unless you take them just on the Bruce Mitchell Scale: "They tell great stories" Lest anyone thinks I'd like to see the underbelly of wrestling whitewashed, I think the folks here who've read what I've written for a long time know that I go back further in thinking this is a shithole business longer then most folks online. I've got no problem with all the sleaze coming out - the business warrants it. But my long jaded, doubting, negative, pessmistic, non-believing point of view also gets aimed at sleazy "stories" just as it did the rah-rah shit about the business. John