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Yeah... old thing talked probably in a load of threads here. It was known before the Carny that Kawada was heading over to team with Taue. Baba asked him. Hence the emotion in the Carny: the shaking of the hands with Taue after their draw to "end" their rivalry, and in the last six man tag where he was emotional rather than pulling a Choshu-Fujinami. Worth remembering that when Jun returned at the end of the Super Power Series (he'd been hurt during Carny), he was instantly paired with Misawa to signal that he would be switching over to that side. In the series after, he was in the six-man that opened the series and was the main on TV. Fuchi never was an option to be a #2, anymore than he had been for Jumbo when Yatsu and Kabuki went to SWS. Jun was far too young to be a #2, and it seemed that by that point the Babas sense he was more of a face/technico than a heel/rudo. This had the right balance: 1. Misawa 2. Kawada 3. Taue 4. Kobashi Turned into: #1 Misawa & #4 Kobashi vs #2 Kawada & #3 Taue The #2 & #3 guys had no wins over #1 (and wouldn't until 1996 in singles), but #4 had never beaten #2 & #3 at that point (and wouldn't until 1996 in singles). Balance. Or... harmony. They also went out of their way in the new series to try to get across the "teamwork" of the new pairing of Kawada & Taue in the sense of them getting along, and the old rivalry had been buried.

It would be interesting if a secondary "results" for the GWE poll were run similar to Sight & Sound: * Top 10 only counts * 1 point only for each Top 10 finish #1 finished on only 22.6% of the ballots. Only #1 and #2 were even on 15% of the ballots. #10 was only on 7.6% of the ballots, and #20 was on 5.4% of the ballots. There's no way in hell the #1 GWE will finish on only 22.6% of the ballots, and #10 will be under 8%, given the length of the ballots here. But if the Stat Keeper at the end also runs it in S&S fashion, one wonders if #1 is on that few of ballots, or if the Top 10 and Top 20 are on so few ballots. Doubt it would have been the case the last time. This time...

I'm wondering where the "upper mid-card-y for his whole career" thing comes from. He was in main events on his first tour of Japan in 1968, and won the promotion's world title in his second one. He worked a ton of main events and semifinals in AWA. I'm sure khawk could say more, and it's been years since I sifted through Clawmaster/Jim Zordani's AWA results... but there was a lot of Billy high on the cards. I think Billy's been often poorly characterized by "history". You use to get, and perhaps still do, comments in pieces by Meltzer and others than Billy was a colorless technical wrestler. You watch Billy against Baba, or him working a tag opposite Dory & Terry with Horst, and you pretty clearly see that Billy was very colorful. He has no problems going toe-to-toe with Terry in "color" to add a spark to a match, or play perfectly off Baba as their match goes on. Same goes with the "mid-carder" stuff. It's nice to see that when someone else looked at the results Keith and I looked at years ago, and that Kevin has spent decades learning about his own beloved promotion, that they find the same thing that we said was in them. Then add in Japan where he headlined for three different promotions in the 60s and 70s. As I said, Billy has been poorly characterized by "history".

So explain this "road" thing. You're in "camp" in the Winter of 1971/72. You don't debut until December 1972, and you sure as hell know how to run the ropes by your debut match. Are you "on the road" for 8 months acting as a ring boy and working out before matches at which point you're learning how to throw fake punches and run the ropes? If so, that's training. For what it's worth, I've been in Tijuana after shows were over and spent a half hour afterwards sitting around while Dave went backstage to talk to Carlos and the boys. In that time, kids would hope up in the ring, run the ropes, do stuff off the corner (first or second turnbuckle), throw fake punches at each other, actually "sell" for each other, etc. They weren't smooth, they were playing around, but... They knew. They were 8-14 year old boys / fans doing "lucha" in the ring. They weren't training, but just fucking around having fun until eventually being cleared of the ring. This was in the mid-90s before breaking kayfabe was even in widespread in the US via the interwebs and online angles, let alone in lucha where it survived a few more years. These weren't guys being "trained" but simply kids who knew how to "play" pro wrestling simply for watching it. Basically Buddy is asking you to believe that he was a Dumber Dude in training than 8-14 year old lucha fans. I don't buy it. I have no idea why you buy it, Matt. You're smart enough and been around carny folks in the business to see through people bullshitting. :/

I talked regularly to one back at the time who tried to explain Kahn Logic to me. Even stuff like signing Darko and trading for Beasley. I've forgotten the logic of it, or for having a half dozen point guards on the team.

I like to throw the term "stooging" at Thesz because Lou himself was such an utter asshole to the wrestlers who came after him (and frankly concurrent to him) about their performing. So when Lou can be found to be begging off, it's a great karmic Fuck You to Lou to point it out. I honestly don't care if it pisses off other fans, since they're not the target of it. Well... if it pissed off old Lou Fanboys like some of the folks on the Thesz Board who also slagged "modern wrestling" relative to Lou, that was also pretty fun to do as well. 80s JCP doesn't have anything to do with it, other than Flair (JCP) and Race (not JCP) being a pair of favorite targets of Lou.

No one said there wasn't kayfabe. You seem to think that Kayfabe means that people couldn't watch pro wrestling and figure out it was fake. The reality is that people saw it as fake all the way back to the 1800s. The link MoS points to gives a host of articles showing that. People who, back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, researched wrestling in the late 1800s through the 1930s in the old school fashion (microfilm at libraries) ran across articles like that all the time. My favorite quote on it of all-time was this one from and on Jack Curley: It was so awesome of an excerpt that when Yohe came across it and shared it with me while he was working on his Curley bio, I hammered him often to make sure he included it. When editing it, we ended up using it at the end as it's the perfect summary of not just the great promoter, but the business.

That reminds me of this one: Russo would need a GM equiv, while Sterling needs an Owner/Promoter equiv. Sterling is kind of Herb Abrams, but with more longevity. Russo is probably David Kahn, better known as KAAAAAAHN!1 Totally incompetent, raised to a level he wasn't qualified to handle, ass backwards theories on his sport, and best of all had loads of fanboys who would defend his shitty moves as actually being smart. Remember all those idiot Russo Apologists who would explain why his ratings were really good, how his booking choices were smart, and how everything that went wrong was the fault of someone else? That's Kahn to a T(imberwolves). One dumbass decision after another. You could see at the moment he pissed Love off (Rubio contract vs Love contract) that Love made a decision to leave, and set up his own contract to do just that... while Kahn was thinking he'd worked Love's contract to the team's benefit. Idiot drafted. Idiot trader. There was the running joke of the team having half a dozen point guards, none of who were as good as Kahn thought. Yep... that's Russo. 1 - trademark Bill Simmons

There is no Baba: megastar wrestler + megastar promoter. There's not always going to be a match. Back in the 90s I use to make the analogy that Choshu was the wrestling equiv of West: high end HOF player/wrestler + high end HOF GM/booker. The problem is that West's personality and Choshu's aren't quite the same. You could say that both were intense, but Choshu is charismatic while Jerry wasn't a flamboyant player, though certainly exciting to a degree.

I will continue to ignore all meanspirited jokes at the expense of Saint Magic. Agree a big with Bruno = Russell, except I like the Londos quality of Russ just retiring with the belt as if no one in the NBA was worthy of him jobbing the title to.

It's a different level of bitching and stooging. That's not the same as an absence of bitching and stooging, which is what Lou would have to believe when he ripped Race and Flair. Lou invented NWA Champ style long before those guys. The reality is also that it was invented before Lou. Old timers just don't want to admit it.

I just don't buy that. The green horns have seen the pros work. They know they throw punches. They know they're fake. I also doubt that they aren't taught to throw a punch before their first match, or even to sell a punch before their first match. Wrestling bumps aren't really judo falls. You're picked up and slammed, not "thrown". They didn't teach a wrestling 101 spot before they actually got in the ring for their first match? "Here's how I pick you up and slam you. I'm going to do this real gentle so you can learn, but in a match we're going to slam the shit out of you." Seriously? Arm drags, hiptosses and slam are all faker than shit in pro wrestling. We all know that. Even cool ones like Steamer against Savage. Exchange holds. Slam. Sell. Sure it's boring, but it's also faker than fake from the start. At 10 I knew generally how it was done: they didn't punch each other in the face like George Foreman hit Joe Fraizer in the face. If I really cared to study it, it wouldn't have been hard to see how they missed the punches, or how some of them liked to stomp the mat to give the "sound" while others like to smack themselves to give a nice meaty sound, or how the guy getting hit would snap his head back. How easy would it have been to see stuff? It's the exact same thing that I did when watching the things I cared about. As a baseball fan and player, I'd watch how the 2B would phantom touch the base, avoid the base runner, side arm to 1B if needed. I'd see how fielders would "look the runner back". I'd study how to position yourself for relay throws, how to "back up" throws, etc. This was all stuff before I was coached by some idiot Little League coach who faked his way through fundamentals. Some of it my dad would point out to me, but most of it would be stuff that I would pick up because he pushed me to look at stuff, pick up things, and then come to him to test out the thinking. In hoops, I didn't do a "set shot" like other kids often did. Why? Because the pros and college players shot above their heads with wrist action. As soon as I could, that's what I practiced. Football throwing a spiral? Watch and practice. Basically were to believe that Pro Wrestling in Training are the Dumbest Mother Fuckers In The World because they can't see the wrestling is Fake (as people had since the 1880s if not earlier) or figure out some of the most basic Fakiness. I don't buy it. Never have. I'm not saying that on the first day they teach you how to get thrown off the top like Ric Flair, or how to get shoved by the ref and bump like Flair. But if Buddy knew it was a work, he certainly knew *how* it was worked before his debut. Over time "on the road" he may have learned stuff like how to work the crowd. But even that is easy to see even before you're working: "Shut up, Fatboy!" -Ric Flair You watched Flair or Hogan before you trained, Matt. You knew how they worked the crowd. Wrestling in the 80s wasn't any more advanced that it was in the 70s in that regards. Trainees were any dumber in the 70s that you were watching wrestling in the 80s.

Yep, you're right. Easy to forget about Hase and Sasaki training when Choshu as in All Japan.

Agree with the thoughts on Laimbeer as Bradshaw. Good comp.

You say the Flair Show like it's a good thing. Anyway, Flair has a long history of treating women like shit. Kareem does as well. He also had a long relationship with Pam Grier before she was big. Let's be honest and admit: Pam Grier > Any Women Flair Had

Agree with Matt on this. Liger's story always has had training in Mexico as the beginning. Then getting into the New Japan dojo. Before heading to Calgary, he'd been wrestling for 3 years, had a short stint in Europe and already thought highly enough to be given an IWGP Jr. challenge just two years into his career (which was kind of rare for New Japan juniors to get shots that early). "Seasoning" as Matt says is more reasonable. Or the old term: "Growing Up". They all were expected to pick up some new things while sent abroad. But it's a real stretch to credit the Calgary Gang for a significant part of the training of these guys. Hase might be one of the exceptions. He was trained in the New Japan dojo for quite some time after signing. But they never debuted him, and instead sent him overseas. He spent a long time away relative to most guys, and it's reasonable to say that he finished his training in Stampede.

Verne in 1973 being heavily involved is pretty reasonable. His workload was extremely light that year. Robinson was very active: pretty much as active as Bock & Stevens were as tag champs, which is as active as anyone was in that period.

You're above your average: three shots. I'm still pulling a Blutarsky for the year at 0.0.

Whenever a wrestler says that, the bullshit detector should go off. 10 year old fans in the 70s knew wrestling was a work. You honestly believe that guys training learning how to throw Fake Punches and take Bumps didn't know it was a work? That they spent their entire training camps doing shoot matches / sparing? Doesn't matter how many times people say it, it's still bullshit. Just as much as it's bullshit when Thesz talked about how people wrestled in his day. Then we got enough tape, and there's Lou bitching & selling & begging off for Verne.

Flair won lots of titles. Kareem won lots of titles: 3 in college & 6 in the NBA. Both of them were winning titles after their prime. Wilt won 2 titles, only one when he was truly the top guy (West was in 1972). Wilt is Andre the Giant. Titles largely meant nothing to him. He won the 1967 Title to prove that he could, then the belt went back to Russell. Wilt was all about being larger than life. Of course there's also the famed quote about no one loving Goliath. * * * * * Laimbeer was a dirty thug heel. I don't think Rose was enough of a thugish tough guy to be Laimbeer. Laimbeer was limited, but had a few strong characteristics: team defense, rebounding, outside shooting (pulling the opposing center away from the hoop long before it became vogue), and dirty intimidating hacking. So you're looking for a tough heel who does a few things good/well, is a thug, but overall limited. Laimbeer certainly wasn't a big bumping heel... though Parrish did beat the living shit out of him once. * * * * * Too early to tell of Leonard is Misawa. On some level, the "Misawa" should be someone whose career we've already seen come to an end (or largely to an end). You can't tab that on someone earlier in their career. Misawa might be Bird. The clear Ace in the World at his peak, respected by everyone even his rivals (Mutoh totally respected Misawa as the real Man in Japan back when both were Champs in 1995). Major titles and honors in his prime. Deadly icy cooler finisher who could take you out with all sorts of spots (Bird could kill you deep, could kill you driving to the hoop, could kill you drawing the foul and going to the line, and could kill you with a super smart "counter steal" like the famous one against the Pistons). Both broke down at the tail end of their primes: Bird after yet another insane year in 1987/88, and Misawa right as he was heading into his first headlining Tokyo Dome. Both stuck around after that, got other honors and flashed some brilliance here and there, but never were really the same after the big injuries. * * * * * Don't really know who Kawhi is. So early in his career. We don't even know if he's going to turn into a serious MVP candidate, or if he's Pippen 2.0 which itself is an exceptional level but never really rose to serious MVP candidate level. I really think we need to let someone who is four years into their career, just 23, and "only" averaged 17-7-3 have some time to develop and show us where the high end of is play on a night-in, night-out basis ends up. I certainly look forward to watching it.

I actually thought about Kobe-Kenta. But I recently read Meltzer's big Kobashi retrospective from a couple of years ago and I decided against that comp because Kobashi wasn't a star athlete in high school like Misawa and Kawada. Obviously Kenta was great from the start. I went with Terry Funk leaning on 2nd generation stars, great work, and just having totally unique and bizarre lives even within their profession which is full of people with unique and bizarre lives. Kobashi had "it" right from the start, and got a push beyond his level really early: those 1989 TV matches in his second year are similar to Kobe making the All Star Game push in his second season. I think Kobashi had a natural gift for pro wrestling, similar to Kobe for basketball. There isn't pro wrestling in jr high and high school, or Kobashi would have been eating up the Nike Puoresu Camps and been a McDonalds High School All-Nippon member. There are some dissimilar things, such as Kobe being an utter dick. But the similarities, right down to them both "playing through injuries" that hardly anyone else would and then breaking down body part by body part. They also both were more insanely driven than any player of their generation... kind of pathological in each case.

Freaking Kent Benson... what a doufus he was. Look at this draft: http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1977.html Despite the risk of getting a second hand high off the coke dust flying around that page, look at all the insane talent there. That craphole of an office NWA Milwaukee had the #1 and #3 picks. They went correct with the #3 pick in Marques Johnson (one of that last great workers "trained" by the John Wooden in the UCLA Dudgeon). But they butchers the #1 in a LOADED draft.

Though it's quite possible that the reason MJ shaved his head was... Hogan was a great worker in his own way.

Kobe might be Kobashi. Think about that one a bit. The only real difference is that most everyone hates Kobe, including some Lakers Fans like myself who thank him for Five More Rings. In contrast, I think most people in the business liked Kobashi. But the other parallels run far and deep. Shaq is a tough one. All-Time Great who did it all, but still should have had more of a career if it wasn't pissed away. On some level perhaps Hashimoto, though Shaq pissed away his own career (with help of Kobe wanting the Lakers to be his own team), while Hash had his career pissed away by Inoki and New Japan, then the decline of the business, then his own sad death. But up through 1998, Hash had already laid down the foundation for an all-time great career and was just 33. Ugh... I'm depressed thinking about it.