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Certainly not as much as Brody, Sid and Warrior, though they all were assholes in different ways. Road Warriors & Lex were different beasts, and I wouldn't even call then heatseekers. I wouldn't have a problem with having either Bret or Ric in a promotion that I ran.

I would have done the same thing as Ric leading into Starcade 1988. Probably the same thing as Ric in 1990. I probably would have handled 1991 differently. The stuff later in the 90s are harder to say since I would have preferred to have been retired as an active wrestler by then if I were Ric (i.e. not have been such a dumbfuck with my money). I think the general point people make with Ric's several times of going against Management is that he's not a saint in that regards relative to, say, Bret's invoking Creative Control that was in his contract. Ric did it in back-to-back years, while in 1988 simply went above his bosses head in a power play that he won. There were people, including Ric and a number of Flair Fans back in the day, who thought what Bret did was pure evil. They didn't take kindly to having Our Hero's prior examples being referenced.

His first power play was before Herd was brought in to run the company, and aimed at Dusty. Ric is of course Our Hero, so anything he did was cool because it was always aimed at The Bad Guys who wanted to screw him. Or at least that was all of our thinking back in the 80s and 90s when Ric walked on water.

https://twitter.com/Billy/status/601496615103426561 and https://twitter.com/Billy/status/601497505252052993 I liked the guy who followed up on the "sloppy angle" aspect.

Dear Bob Ryder: Fuck you. Best regards,

On Rude as a trouble maker: Not sure why I remember this but after Rex King died, Meltzer mentioned that King had a reputation as a "trouble maker" that didn't know when to shut up. He'd stand up for himself and for the rest of the guys all the time but because he wasn't a star he was a "trouble maker who didn't know his role". Rude would do exactly the same thing but because he was a star he was a "stand up guy with balls to say screw you to the system". He also was one of the few who didn't remain quiet during the Montreal stuff. Wouldn't disagree with this. My point was more in the sense that when Rude got to a certain level, he wasn't easy for management to deal with. Of course management was Vince and Eric, who are a pair of assholes themselves. Ted never seemed to have major issues with management, and certainly worked with a wide range of them. He was a guy at the very top of the business in his 1988 run. He came down from that, and remained a useful guy to the promotion for more than another three years. He was up and down before that in Wattsville and Georgia and even the WWF in the 70s. If things are close, it's something that I'd look at: who would I rather have around for 5-10 years as I worked him up and down. With Rude and Ted, things are reasonable close. Rude has some positives, Ted has some positive. Ted just strikes me as more reliable and versatile, and you could do more with him moving him up and down without worrying about him being a dick or jumping ship.

Drafting Jim Herd alone gives one an idea of just how batshit funny that must of been.

Yohe and I talked about it in this thread, following up Gus talking about another one going online on yet another board: http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=16591 Draft was May/June 1993. My second post in the thread gives some of the guidelines. We all liked the first of these two items (get the belts they had), and second of them made things tough in real time: Having Ted's injury, Barry's injury & Gordy's overdose and having to deal with them as "real" in the exact same time frame made things tough, but interesting and realistic. Same goes fro Liger's 1994 injury: you were SOL if you had him. Yohe's listed his draft about halfway down the thread. It is eclectic. My notes and copies of Steve's wild bookings would be buried even deeper in a closet not than in 2009.

Do you mean something like this? The difference is that he wasn't retiring then. I'd kill him off. Of course they did something similar with Stone Cold's injury. It's the WWF/WWE, so they didn't do either of them well. Do like the Rosebud concept. And "crushed leaves" is a fucking riot.

I do like Dave being goofy about when the word "overexposure" entering the English language. He would have been better off being explicit about what he means: overexposure due to television.

That certainly would put Bryan in a tough "middle".

Interesting for Wade. Yeah, he did go out of his way to thank Dave. It's an odd place to be in the middle. Dave appears to have been on Todd's side, but Dave also has a decades long track record of sitting these type of things out while kind of hoping they just go away. If Bryan was in the middle of a Coughlin/Tony on one side and Todd on the other, it probably wouldn't have been too hard to ask Dave where he stood and simply lean in that direction. Then again, don't know his relationship with Tony and how critical he views Tony to the operations of the place.

Hmmm... perhaps:

The difference is that I don't feel the need to give people the "permission" to do stuff that people have done for decades.

The Pro-Wrestling Super Show did it with current talent last year. Pat McNeil has been doing it for years in the Torch with various guest-drafters going opposite of him. I was one of them, and that was more than a decade ago since Eddy was still alive and I was actually watching the WWF. Hell, Yohe, Hoback and I did it in 1993. Yohe took his talent and booked it for two straight years, month after month, writing up the weekly tv, the monthly PPV, and even the detail of the house shows where he avoided running the same card night after night. He was doing the equiv of Raw/Nitro style booking on TV years before the Monday Night Wars, and I use to joke with him that he was insane for giving away good stuff for free on tv. I probably still have my copy of all of it in a box somewhere. It's a really old concept. Suspect the older folks on here were doing it with their friends in the 80s, if they had wrestling friends.

I'd rather watch Rude at this point. As to who I'd want in my promotion, probably Ted. Rude struck me at the time, and still strikes me, as often a pain in the rear with an ego that increased over time. I recall laughing with Dave over Rude emphatically telling people in WCW that he'd never job for Hogan after Hulk arrived in the company. Ted was reliable, and versatile. If you're running a company, you could do more with him, move him up and down, etc. With Rude, nailed right, you probably could make more money. Then again... Ted's biggest money run did more money that Rude's. That could be circumstances and luck, and Rude just not having the right chance. The WWF didn't knock everything out of the park, and it's possible that Rude built well to be Savage's follow on opponent after Ted's run was done could have drawn. Possible that if built well that he could have drawn well with Hogan, though he didn't fit well in the model of people who drew well at that point in time with Hulk. Hard to tell if even the concept in the first sentence of this paragraph is right... might be over estimating Rude. Still: would rather watch Rude, and would rather have Ted in my promotion.

Not bad.

I don't think Warrior can match this: 1989 NBA Champion 1989 1st Team All-Defensive 1990 NBA Champion (2) 1990 Defensive Player of the Year 1990 1st Team All-Defensive (2) 1991 Defensive Player of the Year (2) 1991 1st Team All-Defensive (3) 1992 1st Team All-Defensive (4) 1992 3rd Team All-NBA 1992 Rebound Per Game Leader 1993 1st Team All-Defensive (5) 1993 Rebound Per Game Leader (2) 1994 2nd Team All-Defensive 1994 Rebound Per Game Leader (3) 1995 1st Team All-Defensive (6) 1995 3rd Team All-NBA (2) 1995 Rebound Per Game Leader (4) 1996 NBA Champion (3) 1996 1st Team All-Defensive (7) 1996 Rebound Per Game Leader (5) 1997 NBA Champion (4) 1997 Rebound Per Game Leader (6) 1998 NBA Champion (5) 1998 Rebound Per Game Leader (7) It's funny that we remember the nut. Rodman has mentally issues, and always has. I think even his friends, teammates, coaches and management who like/respect him would agree with that. But... He was a terrific player, and not for a short time. He had some blow ups. The end in San Antonio was a mess. His time with the Lakers and Mavs was a mess. His break with the Pistons was hard, but a chunk of that had to do with Chuck Daly leaving. People toss around "father figure" a lot, but for Chuck really was that for Rodman. Also had a divorce that season... just a brutal year for someone who had family issues growing up. When his world was solid and focused, he was off the charts. Those would be the Daly years with the Pistons and the three years with the Bulls. That's nine seasons. He was more sporadic in the two years with the Spurs: some nights you got high end Rodman, and in other stretches he looked like he wanted to be somewhere else. I'd have him at a higher level than Warrior. You'd look for someone who was nuts, but terrific and respected when "on", a bit limited one of the top tier all-time greats at his two specialties (defensive then a rebounding monster). Not a solo main eventer, but an important part of great promotions.

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/89.htm WWF @ Houston, TX - Summit - July 16, 1989 (10,000) The Genius defeated Paul Roma Bushwhacker Butch defeated Tully Blanchard (w/ Arn Anderson); the bout was originally scheduled as a tag match but Bushwhacker Luke was injured Bret Hart fought Mr. Perfect to a draw Jimmy Snuka defeated the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart); after the bout Snuka headbutted Hart Brutus Beefcake defeated Greg Valentine The Warlord defeated Koko B. Ware WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Randy Savage (w/ Sensational Sherri) after Savage collided with Sherri on the apron; after the bout, Elizabeth slapped Savage and hit Sherri with Sherri's own purse They list it as Tully. There's another Tully-Butch two nights earlier. Arn & Tully won the tag titles at the SNME taping two days later.

It is quiet amazing 14 years after WCW went in the tank.

Our prior Cartoon Sub-Thread in the equally entertaining The poor sportsmanship of Hulk Hogan thread: prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/14212-the-poor-sportsmanship-of-hulk-hogan/page-5 We eventually got around to RR and Wil E in there. Road Runner was face Andre working a limited schedule, a monster draw respected by everyone. That nasty bastard Tweety was the real asshole of the Warner Brothers Promotion.

There are always different things that pop up that haven't been talked about in a while, so it's fresh to think about it again. The Can-Ams move up into the heavies doesn't come up since it was something of a blip, and most all of us, myself included, tends to think of them more for their All Asia period. Which hits a side tangent: there was this golden age of the All Asia Title (limited to its run in All Japan rather than the JWA period which was richer). It basically was the Footloose & Can-Ams period. The titles didn't really mean a whole hell of a lot prior to that, nor were they pushed much on TV. You can look at Dan's season sets of All Japan in the 80s prior to the Footloose winning the title and you'd have a hard time finding All Asia Title matches, let alone finding them regularly airing. Some examples: 10/24/87 Takashi Ishikawa & Mighty Inoue vs Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki Footloose's first challenge wasn't on TV. 07/30/87 Takashi Ishikawa & Mighty Inoue vs Isamu Teranishi & Masanobu Kurisu A decision belt to fill the vacant title. 4 minutes of the 19 minute match aired. 10/30/86 Takashi Ishikawa & Mighty Inoue vs Ashura Hara & Super Strong Machine Title change... didn't air. 07/10/86 Takashi Ishikawa & Mighty Inoue vs Ashura Hara & Goro Tsurumi JIP on TV 04/21/86 Takashi Ishikawa & Mighty Inoue vs Animal Hamaguchi & Isamu Teranishi Didn't air. Of the five title matches in 1986-87, three of them didn't air, and the other two aired small parts. Change? 01/29/88 Footloose (Kawada/Fuyuki) vs. Mighty Inoue vs. Takashi Ishikawa (5:52 of 20:42 aired) 03/09/88 Footloose (Kawada/Fuyuki) vs. Mighty Inoue/Takashi Ishikawa (9:24 of 17:41 aired) 04/21/88 Footloose vs. Mighty Inoue/Takashi Ishikawa (8:06 of 19:24 aired) 07/19/88 Footloose vs. Nakano/Takano (7:55 of 15:45 aired) 09/09/88 Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki vs Shunji Takano & Shinichi Nakano (title change didn't air) 09/15/88 Footloose vs. Shinnichi Nakano/Shunji Takano (title change aired) Five of six aired. While they still were JIP, you started getting more of them. By 1992-93, they were fixtures on TV. 12 minutes of the 05/25/92 Can-Am vs Kobashi & Kikuchi title changed aired. 20 minutes of the 07/05/92 Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Fuchi & Ogawa. All 23:14 of the 01/24/93 Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Akiyama & Ogawa aired, which is the high point of stuff airing. The two title changes after that got little/no run on TV, and by the following year the tv time of the program was cut in half. But from 1988 through early 1993, the belt and division were given more air time and respect than ever before or after.

Another Hakeem-Bret link: They were both thought to be complaining assholes by people "in the know" before they became beloved legends later. Hakeem for winning the Jordan-less titles, and Bret for being the Anti-Shawn and getting fucked by Vince. Both were non-US who became stars in the US. Bret had the longer climb, while Hakeem was a major star from day one. * * * * * Guys like English are tough. There are loads of guys who were gunners who didn't do much else. One can look for comps to guys like Nique or Pistol Pete, but when you hit the English level there always are guys like that who have a run of scoring a lot. We just talked a bit about Mitch Richmond. English vs Kiki... they're not the same player, but the same disposable scorer. Someone like Dantley can be distinguished because of his unique style: he was a 6-4 / 6-5 who got his points via post ups along with a freakish ability to draw fouls. I can't think of any players who were like AD at his size in that era. Barkley was around his height, but more of a beast because of his weight-size. With English... eh... kind of a generic "star" who scored a lot, has a career of good length, was a main eventer in his mid-level promotion, but never was a national / major star. * * * * * Mullin was a bit unique and we should be able to come up with someone. The no-defense should lead to someone who really didn't have good psych, but was more a spot monkey. Someone kind of corny rather than a super cool gimmick / persona. Not really a top top star, but this: 1988-89 NBA All-NBA (2nd) 1989-90 NBA All-NBA (3rd) 1990-91 NBA All-NBA (2nd) 1991-92 NBA All-NBA (1st) Isn't a bad "peak".

They're really tough. We forget that Jackson in his prime put up three straight seasons of 20-4-4, 21-5-7 & 21-5-4, that he was good before that, that he was a tough defender, and that he was one of the leading edge modern wingman who shoot the three and play defense. He was a little inconsistent on being efficient, but you tend to get that in the early days of a trend. Ron-Ron at his peak was the best defensive player in the league. Pretty much Pippen 2.0, but much-much-much more physically tough. He also was turning into a quality offensive player right when the Malice at the Palace happened, and that really stunted his growth. Neither had short careers. Ron-Ron was nuts, though about 95% of the time it was a loveable nut. There was a part of his personality that would snap when he felt attacked / pushed, and it was pretty scary. I suspect some of us growing up knew someone like that. One of my best friends was as solid of a guy as there was, you could always count on him to have your back and treat you well... but if he got in a fight, he just went scary nuts on the other person. And people tended to avoid getting him into one of those rages, and if they knew he they knew to calm him the hell down as soon as he had a certain look in his eyes/face. Jackson wasn't quite nuts. He was just an old school hard man mixed with some new school pride & honor. Tough man, but his actions were easier to understand. I'd hate to tie Hansen to being something paired with Brody. Hansen & Brody only teamed from 1982 to early 1985. It's such a small element of the totality of Hansen's career. I'd also like to tie Brody to some really overrated "showy" player, rather than a pair of hard working players like Ron-Ron and Captain Jack.

Agreed that Simmons, especially his podcasts, were the things drawing. They likely paid good money to the writers they lifted from elsewhere, which as revenue declines makes it harder to sustain. On the other hand... ESPN does role out some things that appear to not be big draws and are likely money losers. I doubt Outside The Lines makes money given its time slot, and that Bob Ley would be at the second tier of host salaries at ESPN - behind Boomer, (formerly) Fowler, and now SVP and probably a few others, but probably not behind too many more. OTL is in a dead viewing hour for watching: people work when it's on. They could pawn off the costs of Ley since he does other stuff, but it OTL is one of his more consistent job with the company. E:60 probably doesn't make any money of note. Again, they can pawn off a lot of costs because many people working it do other things. But it's also small potatoes in the company. ESPN likes a few things like that as it gives the company some cred beyond the general whorehouse nature of the network where they just sell themselves left and right to the sports they carry. Grantland has a chance to survive in that since if it stays "relevant" on some level, and perhaps at some reduced costs. Some of the idiot writers doing marginal numbers get bounced. Podcasts that don't do numbers get tossed. They narrow the focus to a core writer or two per sport, they look to continue some Long Form Writing that gets attention, they look to get slightly more prolific on minor update content (i.e. clickbate on stuff happening Right Now!!! during a day), etc. We need to remember that ESPN has employed Rick Reilly for about seven years in an overpaid role that draws the company next to nothing other than the "prestige" of having an 11 time "National Sportswriter of the Year" on their roster... or at least prestige in someone's mind there as very few people have given a shit about Reilly in his time with ESPN. The other thing they can do with Grantland is simply roll the writers who are "keepers" like Lowe and Barnwell into ESPN.com. They already had "analysts" like Hollinger for years. One suspects that people in ESPN value Lowe, who tends to get name dropped around basketball circles more than more writers at his level. * * * * * Masked Man is probably fucked. There isn't likely a role for him at ESPN.com. Page 2 is dead. ESPN generally doesn't give a shit about pro wrestling, despite any number of SportsCenter host dropping WWF/WWE references from time-to-time. Perhaps he draws clicks at a higher rate than their paying him, which is possible since it seems likely he's officially on the full-time payroll.