pantherwagner

Which matches are good Zbyszko matches? Not saying there aren't any, all I have seen of him is AWA and WCW stuff, and he's one of those guys whose match I skip if I'm watching a DVD and he's on. I can't recall any Zbyszko singles matches that I have enjoyed.

I was close to ask for you to be banned. I read the entire thread earlier today but now only directly went to the last message (yours), and since they were tag partners, for a second I though that you were talking about the GOOD Steve Regal. Anyhow, how about Larry Zbyszko?

Considering how eager the new age Japanese media is to uncover sports scandals (fighting, kickboxing, and more recently sumo, judo and baseball) we'll know that NJPW has really hit the mainstream when shit hits the fan. If such a thing were to happen, Tanahashi has got all the numbers to be their Hulk Hogan for a number of reasons. Or maybe not!

I won't discuss the merits of Tanahashi as a worker or a draw in Japan, I don't know enough about him. However, I think it's odd how the "Jumbo is lazy"/"Eddie is lazy" argument is selectively applied. Most of the Tanahashi I have seen is in Mexico and he blows there because he doesn't do anything. AT ALL. Other than maybe play air guitar. I can't imagine anybody being the best in the world when Rush is dragging your ass to try to have a decent match in a big tournament that you are going to win. Don't really blame the guy for not trying during a paid vacation where he's probably thinking about getting the fuck out of Arena Mexico and head out to Cancun, though.

I remember now why I knew that. I found out about Rikidozan's son-in-law as he got a lot of shit when five members of the national football (soccer) women's team were flagged for steroids two years ago. Apparently he was the one overseeing the entire operation. He got the job because he was a childhood friend of Kim Jong-il. I started digging information on this subject out of curiosity and ended up reading about Inoki.

Don't ask me where did I read this because I can't remember (though I remember that it wasn't any of the traditional wrestling media) but a few years ago I read how Inoki used to go to North Korea several times a year. He doesn't necessarily go as a politician, but he's got a way in as the protege of Rikidozan. One of Rikidozan's sons in law is some sort of politician there.

I expect Enrique Torres to be a lock and I think Carlos Colon is getting in. To be honest I think no modern (votes too spread) or Japanese performers are getting in this year. Sasaki will be hurt by Tanahashi voters. I imagine at least one non-performer is getting in, perhaps two. Mexico... I don't know. I look forward to the bios in future issues. Deglane's bio kind of bored me when it was "he beat this guy then another guy beat him then he won the rematch etc. etc." but the BiteGate story was fantastic.

DeLucia surely didn't get the memo that he was losing.

It's amazing how often is Hokuto on TV. I was in Japan for three months and whenever I'd turn on the TV, or was at an airport or something like that, it was either her or Yoshihiro Akiyama on some sort of retarded show. Piper is another good example of a long marriage though I guess his wife must be a very forgiving lady. I can't remember where did I hear this (I'm thinking Steve Austin's podcast) but apparently Rick Steiner is doing very well between his role at the board of education somewhere and in real estate. Steiner started his real estate business with Big Boss Man, so it's a real shame that Boss Man died because he was pretty much set for life after wrestling and didn't need to drag his ass to the ring anymore unless he wanted to (like those weird IWA Japan tours he did with a bunch of old NWA/WWF dudes).

This we should most definitely do. Who can forget that Canadian crooner Henry Burr or the irresistible Alice Joyce? Bigger star? Hogan or Steve Guttenberg? Hogan or Al Bundy? Hogan or Kathleen Turner? The funny thing about Hogan is that outside of North America he was more famous than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky. In Southern Europe in the 90s Magic and Bird were much bigger than Hogan (I imagine Central Europe too but I'd be only guessing). I think the difference is that your dad would know Magic, Bird and Hogan, but your grandpa wouldn't know Hogan. Montana would mostly be known by teenage males as the guy on the NFL video game on the SEGA consoles. Gretzky is a total no name. I know he's a hockey player but I couldn't pick him out of a lineup. Before satellite it was next to impossible to see NBA games. When satellite took off, it was Jordan who led the NBA boom. Bird and Magic were basically out of the picture after '92, though I'm sure they were a big deal in Barcelona that year. In their primes, they were basically inaccessible compared to wrestling unless Europe had some major NBA coverage I'm unaware of. I was a child in the 80s so I don't remember how far back does the NBA on TV go in Spain but in 86 we had Fernando Martin there so it was a big deal to us (even though he barely played at all), and later Drazen Petrovic who was "our guy" even though he was Croatian, and the same thing with Arvydas Sabonis a few years later, so we had late night NBA matches on free TV once a week as far as I can remember. We also had at least two weekly basketball magazines. I don't know if there are any Italians or Greeks here but basketball was huge there too in the late 80s/early 90s, so I imagine they had similar coverage. Of course in Yugoslavia (which isn't southern Europe as my initial point) it also was the national sport for a while. I don't know how big basketball was in France pre-Rigaudeaux (I'm sure I screwed up that name). I have no idea about how it was anywhere north of France but I can guarantee to you that Magic and Bird (even pre-Dream Team) were much bigger. The Olympics may have helped a lot too as for a while they were everywhere and those guys were the legends. McDonalds had a long promotion where a Happy Meal would give you toys and life-size posters of the Dream Team guys (I had Pat Ewing at 2.13 for years in my bedroom). And when PC computers starting making their way to the market around 1992, the NBA Lakers vs Celtics game was a huge deal with secondary school and high school kids, so there's a generation of people that know Kareem but don't know about Dr. J. Barcelona, my hometown, such a wonderful place, we kind of set the wheels in motion to fuck up the life of two great legends: Diego Maradona (tons and tons of coke) and Magic (teh AIDS).

I haven't seen Vovchanchyn vs Takada in four or five years but I believe that one was also a carry job where Igor was asked not to beat Takada in the first. Maybe Jon or somebody else remembers the details of this but didn't PRIDE also have some weird "submission" bonuses where BOTH fighters would get extra money if the match ended with somebody tapping out? That left a lot of endings open for speculation back in the day.

This we should most definitely do. Who can forget that Canadian crooner Henry Burr or the irresistible Alice Joyce? Bigger star? Hogan or Steve Guttenberg? Hogan or Al Bundy? Hogan or Kathleen Turner? The funny thing about Hogan is that outside of North America he was more famous than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky. In Southern Europe in the 90s Magic and Bird were much bigger than Hogan (I imagine Central Europe too but I'd be only guessing). I think the difference is that your dad would know Magic, Bird and Hogan, but your grandpa wouldn't know Hogan. Montana would mostly be known by teenage males as the guy on the NFL video game on the SEGA consoles. Gretzky is a total no name. I know he's a hockey player but I couldn't pick him out of a lineup.

Mexico had its own magazines so you could follow the storylines there. During their heyday they were something in between the Japanese ones (where the main features would be the big cards of the week with photos of the action) and the American ones with interviews and personality profiles. There was also newspaper coverage but it usually amounted to a paragraph with some results on the sports papers. No idea on exact ratings other than when TV started in 89 they were gigantic.

Glad that you guys liked the post. I was pretty inspired I guess. Correct. Those two were the two major promotions. Mexico and Coliseo are owned by the Lutteroth family so LLI (Lucha Libre Internacional) ---- also known as Los Independientes, or simply "El Toreo", and on the internet and Wrestling Observer also as UWA because that's what the title belts' sanctioning body ----- had to find other arenas so they ran weekly shows at El Toreo in Naucalpan, just outside of Mexico City, and bigger "must see" supershows at the newer and more expensive to rent Palacio de los Deportes. There was a short time third contender "kiddies promotion" called AWWA at some point in 1985 that had the benefit of TV but they didn't last long and they only ran small arenas in Mexico City. They were as much of a threat as Slaughter's AWF or Abrams' UWF were to the top two... Yes and no. Let me explain. Monterrey was a very successful territory that had its own loosely affiliated loop of promoters. You could work the big arenas and also some nearby smaller towns and make a decent living, and at some point they also unofficially incorporated Nuevo Laredo into the loop, which is in the state of Tamaulipas and is a border town with Laredo, TX. The promoter in the 80s and 90s was Carlos Elizondo, who in many ways was a lot like Antonio Pena. He was very good at capturing the imagination of the "casual fan" crowd as he had a great eye to know which national main event "draws" drew on their own and which ones were supporting players, actively pushed "blowjob babyfaces" as he was very gay and gave the first break to handsome nuthugger-wearing young men like Latin Lover or Chris Jericho, knew the value of children's cartoon gimmicks and comedy exoticos, and was one of the first to use US style stip matches (chain match, cage match, etc.). Money wise and crowds wise they probably were the most successful territory from early 70s to late 90s running weekly shows at the Monumental bullring and Coliseo de Monterrey. The talent mostly was local, some truly independent wrestlers (like Mil Mascaras or Hijo del Santo), and Independiente (LLI/UWA affiliated) wrestlers until they changed alliances to CMLL in 1991. At some point in the mid 00's they stopped running the bullring and later changed promoters when a TV channel called Multimedios bought the Coliseo which is where they run now. I'd personally not consider them a separate promotion but rather a territory. They didn't even have a promotional name even though they used the name FILL as their CMLL/NWA/UWA type sanctioning body for their championships. Historically they can be classified as the number three territory in the country for many years. If you look at historical mask and hair matches they have the highest number of fallen trophies outside of the State of Mexico. Same thing applies to title changes. The WWA was actually in Tijuana, not Monterrey, and I'd consider them a promotion. It was ran by Benjamin Mora Jr. who took over from his dad, and even though the guy was a whackjob he had some brilliant ideas. He was one of the first to tape TV at several points in 1987, 1990-91 and 1996. These shows would be shown in Tijuana and California. As far as I know he was the first Mexican promoter to regularly run Los Angeles at the Olympic, most famously the first Santo vs Casas match. They bought the dying Lucha Libre magazine and used it as a promotional vehicle for their own wrestlers. They had a very strong staple of local workers including Rey Misterio Sr. who is the Jerry Lawler of Tijuana. It was a very workrate oriented territory also based around Negro Casas, Hijo del Santo and Super Astro with appearances by Solar, Fishman, Villano III and a few other major stars. And they were the first to give a break to Konnan and Colibri (Rey Jr.). Due to the good economy in Tijuana back then due to its proximity to the US this was the top paying promoter in the entire country for many years, so for a wrestler they'd be a definite number three. But as I said Mora was insane and held really ugly personal grudges so he was out of the game in the early 90s even though he supposedly was making very good money. He made a few short comebacks here and there but the competition (and corruption) in Tijuana would make the Georgia territorial wars look like children's play. Guadalajara and Puebla aren't really territories or promotions or anything like that. These are Lutteroth owned arenas so you'd work weekday shots there if you were with EMLL. The Laguna (which geographically it's like the Twin Cities in MN, with the difference that the river also marks the limit between two states) is another different territory where you could make a decent living. They don't run any big arenas or stadiums so there's no major money there. But it's also one of the few places where local mid-card wrestlers can get up to 20 shots a month and live, albeit a basic and simple lifestyle, only off their wages as a wrestler. But spending a lot of time here would make people wonder whatever happened to you. Not sure if this the answer you are looking for but as I mentioned before the two top promotions were really the only real players and controlled the flow of major stars in the market. Nobody else was competition in any way, shape or form.

The title match essence is actually very simple. Here's the actual background: Pre-1975 there were two types of major titles: National titles and NWA titles. Bouts for those titles were sanctioned by actual wrestling and boxing commissions and until the post-TV era they actually had actual shoot weigh ins as preposterous as that sounds. These bouts were also supposed to be wrestled clean, and while sometimes they allowed some rudo shenanigans, the commissions had the power to overrule the referee and the actual promoter and reverse any title changes or vacate any titles, and ban any wrestlers from making a living on their area of jurisdiction for any period of time that they considered appropriate. I know that this sounds unbelievable in this day and age. But you could be out of Arena Mexico for a month or two for brawling or trying to make your opponent bleed during a title match. Even in the mid 90s guys were banned for inciting riots or using chairs. At some point in the 90s when you saw Fuerza Guerrera disappearing from the cards for weeks you knew he'd punched some heckling fan right in the grill. Or when La Fiera, Jerry Estrada or Sangre Chicana was nowhere to be seen you knew he'd probably been too fucked up to go to the ring one night, or perhaps too fucked up to even make it to the arena, so instead they'd leave us some Monterrey gems for us to discover two decades later. Even a top guy couldn't afford NOT being able to wrestle for a long time at Arena Mexico or Coliseo or Palacio de los Deportes (El Toreo was in Naucalpan, which is not in Distrito Federal, but in Mexico State which is another area). If you weren't there you didn't exist for the magazines like Lucha Libre or Box y Lucha and you'd miss on bookings all over the country because of that. You could go up north and make a good living working the Guadalajara, Monterrey or Laguna loops combined with Friday shots in Tijuana or maybe Ciudad Juarez, but eventually you had to go back to the big arenas to stay relevant. Pre-AAA there were thousands (literally) of good or better wrestlers and pretty much everybody was expendable. Anyway, I am rambling here. The point is that all title matches had to be played cleanly and even a dastardly rudo like Pirata Morgan had to be a gentleman even though it really was in his heart to try to bite El Dandy's forehead to make the motherfucker bleed like a pig. So he had to outsmart his opponent while not being outsmarted himself, all of this within the rules laid down by the commission We had this discussion a lot back in the Smarkschoice days and I'm sure you guys have had it here sometime in the last few years. But lucha libre, and most wrestling in general, is really simple. No need to overcomplicate a product that is designed as something to be understood by the 60 year old ladies in the first row. Instead of writing this long rant I could have quoted my good buddy goodhelmet and made it easier "Even just doing matwork for 30 minutes is a mind game. A guy is going to slip and get counted down for three. The guy with less mental slips wins. Pretty simple. It doesn't hurt that the work is actually pretty when being executed." THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO TITLE MATCHES. Reading the posts I know most of you really get the spirit of what they are (because it is really that simple) but now you know why it is what it is.

What???

I'm pretty sure Dave wants to have the full picture of his career. Rey is a very reasonable and chilled out dude. He's got a family and even if his contract as an active performer expires there's always going to be a legends contract of some sort in the future: special appearances on RAW, maybe a goodwill ambassador, video game deals (I'm not totally sure but I think that this check alone is supposed to be worth five figures), WWE Network appearances, a Hall of Fame induction tied in with a new career retrospective DVD. I doubt that he'd be ready to dish out the dirt and leave hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table unless they really fucked him over badly.

There was a brief discussion on the podcast about what a "lucha de maestros" really means and how both Dave and Dylan didn't feel like an authority to give a definition of what it really means, and not like I feel that I am that authority at all, but it is kind of simple. "Maestro" is a double play on words in Spanish: it means "master" as well as "teacher" or "trainer", so the original idea basically was to play against each other guys who were old timers who had mastered the craft (and by that it mostly means matwork and wacky submissions) as well as having a reputation as trainers. Of course this being pro wrestling the concept is what the promoter wants it to be so most of the time it's really old men fighting each other using the old title match style. You have had matches of that kind with people like Mano Negra (who was a perfectly fine journeyman but far from a master of the craft) or Ultraman (who may have helped some guys here and there but I don't think really has got any kind of reputation as a trainer).

OJ, where do you rank Mile Zrno? I hope that someday you can work with somebody in getting European yearbook compilations put together.

Agreed. But Hogan is probably the bigger "wrestling" star, while The Rock is "only" the bigger star, as odd as it may sound. This is not odd at all. The Rock is pretty well known in places like Hong Kong or Malaysia or Taiwan where they have no clue that he is/was a pro wrestler. He's just a big actor dude, like Vin Diesel.

And the USWA and Michinoku Pro. And WAR (vs King Haku)

I think that it all comes down to Mexico never having TV as a promotional product until a couple of decades ago (save a few short stints half a century ago) so it was never part of the culture to hype up the upcoming arena matches doing a studio interview. You only say a few sentences after the match when you want to challenge somebody for their title/hair/mask and that’s it, so it never was a required skill that you had to polish on your way up the cards. Except for a few isolated matches I haven’t watched AAA in about a decade but I imagine that it’s now part of their product. I also liked how in the early 00’s IWRG used to have short interviews before the matches (maybe they still do, I don’t know). It helped you know a bit more about the personality of some of their local guys. And about Atlantis, people sure do believe what he says, and he also believes what he’s saying too. The good thing about lucha libre is that a lot of the wrestlers are their own characters just like it used to be in the United States, and they aren’t given WWE style scripted lines. Cien Caras and his brothers are also guys that aren’t a good promo and they speak like northern ranchers, which is a great fit, because, well, that’s what they are, badass northern ranchers from Jalisco. I know that it’s an old cliche but “I will do my talking in the ring” applies to old school lucha libre.

Very few are great. Pierroth Jr. for sure, he may be one of the best ever in Mexico even if his promos are a bit over the top for some. He used to get nuclear heat in Puerto Rico, it's a shame that his run over there wasn't in the 80s, I could have easily seen him headlining a stadium against Carlos with some sort of bloody wild stip match. Dr. Wagner Jr. is also pretty good. I like Negro Casas too, his cocky promos making fun out of his opponents are very entertaining.

WWF / Arena Wrestling Alliance @ Auckland, New Zealand - Mt. Smart Supertop - April 8, 1990 Norman Smiley defeated Bob Orton Jr. I want to see this match.