Phil Schneider

We aren't talking about Harley Race throwing out a piledriver in a match and it not leading to a finish. We are talking about Race piledriving people on the floor in meaningless undercard matches and forcing the guy taking the move to no-sell it. Those things are pretty different, and it is as bad as IWA-MS rookies throwing burning hammers in openers.

The title of this thread is misleading, I was comparing the two because I saw similar flaws. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Angle is better then Race. My argument is that they have similar shitty tendancies. Also meaningless piledriver where the opponent no-sells seems to be something Race does alot of, when it happens in a Flair match he seems like the right guy to blame for it.

Yeah what Jingus said, the Harley throw away piledriver on the floor was a Harley spot. I remember when watching the Kirshner match thinking "hey he did that stupid piledriver on the floor spot again." Let me aritculate a little about how bad that spot was, and how it fits a little more into my general problems with Race. You have King Harley working fourth from the top on a Boston house show against a JTTS like Kierchner, and trying to work his touring World Title match. Kirchner is treated here like the local top babyface who has been waiting his entire career to get a shot at the legendary Harley Race, instead of like a lower card guy with only slightly more wins then losses. So about four minutes into the match Race takes him outside and piledrives him on the floor. Now this is a move that traditionally is used in 80's wrestling to put a guy out for a couple of months, build to a huge return, or write someone out of a territory. Here Race is throwing it out in the early minutes of an undercard match, not only that Race rolls back into the ring. Which mean Kirchner has to get back into the ring to beat a ten count, which means he basically has to no-sell the move. Then moments later you have Kirchner getting two counts with bodyslams, or you have Race taking giant theatrical bumps for the Corps shitty punches. Piledriver on the floor= throwaway, bodyslam=dramtic two count. Watching that match I think "Man Race has some cool stuff (piledriver, double underhook suplex, crazy back bump to the floor), but what the fuck is supposed to be going on in this match?" It is very similar to my thoughts on most Kurt Angle matches (Why is Shane McMahon throwing Suplexes on an Olympian? Does everyone know dozens of reversals of the ankle lock?) This isn't an isolate bad Harley performance, hell this was probably the best match of Corporal Kirchners career, this was a match which pretty much encapsulated what he does very badly.

I'm a little confused as to the condescension in your replies as I'm on the same page with you feeling Lawler is a better all around package. I think Race is a better athlete than Lawler (and would think that Lawler would be the first to admit that. He has joked about his athletic ability all the time). I don't know how I can prove that to you and don't think that's even necessary, it's just an opinion. From the matches I've seen of him, he's good at move/counter move and that actual on the mat wrestling portion. Pure wrestling. It was just an observation, not a condemnation of Lawler. They're completely different styles and acts. Lawler's appeal was never the athletic content of his matches. It was his promo ability and the way he could connect with an audience before and during the match. He has impeccable timing Not trying to be condecending, but like S.L.L. said I can't think of anything that Race does that is particularly more athletic then Lawler, both come off the top, both take athletic bumps. Hell Lawler has a really great dropkick, which isn't something I remember Harley doing. Also Race isn't really known as much of a mat guy, in fact lack of mat ability is what Thez always held against him. I think Lawler and Race are really way more similar then say Race and Briscoe or Race and Dory Funk.

Agreed. I think you're arguing me on a point I wasn't making. In fact, your first sentence was the point I was going for. I would pick Lawler to be my main event 10 times out of 10 over Race. Okay what does Race do that makes him a better wrestler in the "purest sense"?

Race had more suplexes then Lawler, but then again so did Dirty Rhodes, but for execution of what they did, I would put Lawler above Race. It is close for sure, they actually did very similar things. Lawler's punches are better, Race has great punches, but Lawler may have the best ever. Lawler's piledriver was better. Race had the diving headbutt which was awesome, but the diving fistdrop is just as cool looking for a flying move. Also Race is a crazy bumper, but Lawler may have been the biggest non-Lucha bumper of the 70's and 80's. For me Lawler does the same things, just a little better. Also I am not Frank Jewett, I don't count moves. For me it is much more important how someone puts a match together then the stuff they do. Race is a guy with lots of stuff, but he is pretty flawed in how he puts that stuff together, which is where the Angle comparison comes in.

I really can't see how anyone could rank Lawler below Harley Race in any way. Also I am unclear on what the difference between "ring ability" and "psychology"

They had a good match in New Japan in 1982

Come on, it's clearly legit now. Gregh is a guy with some quirks, but he is also a guy rich enough that he would just give ROH some cash to keep it afloat before running some con job.

Of course it will be on DVD, everything ROH does is on DVD. They are a DVD company.

Man I want to see Buddy Landell go to a draw with rookie Akira Taue. I assume that isn't on tape anywhere?

Hey Loss, make sure you crosspost your reviews, you are the first guy to watch some of these, you can set the debate.

You just hate him because he's black

Okay that has to be BINGO right there

To be fair that was the Boston show, Nowitski was backstage at the Edison show. So Necro was no-selling a chair shot the day before Nowitski showed up. I am sure he wouldn't do something like that post Nowitski visit.

It was really good, It would probably be in the low 30's but when I watched it, I didn't think it was as good as the 25th match on my list