Dylan Waco

Michaels was a blowjob babyface pretty boy. I realize the particulars of this are a lost cause (you think the criticisms of the match are wildly wrong, I think they are transparently correct), but I do think it's a pretty massive stretch to compare near rookie, light heavy, blowjob babyface, pretty boy, Shawn Michaels to 1984 Hulk Hogan, let alone Dusty or Garvin. Staying at home in the AWA you could point to Greg Gagne as a guy who worked as a dickish face in a ton of tags, but I don't think I ever saw anything from him that even came close to what we saw in the "face shine" of the cage match in question.

To me the second half of the match really saves it. I can almost buy the argument that the second half of the match was worked strongly enough where in a way it justifies some of the flaws I think are obvious about the first half of the match. If nothing else I really like the second half enough to keep it from being anything close to a cellar dweller and in fact it will place reasonable well on my ballot. But of the matches that will do pretty decently on my ballot (top half), I doubt there is one I think is more flawed. And while I think Matt pushes his legit criticisms to far, I think of the two most heavily debated matches on this forum (this and Rheingans v. Martel), I at least understand and grasp Matt's argument/take here and I get why he has the match in the basement even if I think it is an extremely radical position to take.

I actually don't think there is anything wrong with a conviction statement, but on a message board or even in a general discussion about something they pretty much are worthless.

Jake has done tv shots for Rampage and TCW in the last couple of weeks, so he has been in the locker room recently. I imagine Johnny G is kind of guy who would have previously paid Jake in coke/teenage hookers, pretty positive that didn't happen here as Page was with him. TCW is run out of Arkansas, Mississippi and has vague association with Memphisish wrestling. There champion is fucking Lance Hoyt. I can only imagine what that locker room is like

I love ya, man, and I know you didn't mean it this way, but that's just an insulting, condescending, pile of horseshit. Wrestling isn't supposed to be about analysis. It's supposed to about emotion. It's fun to analyze matches, it's what we all do. But when you take some sort of "higher road" when watching this shit...well...there's a reason analysis starts with anal. I can see how it would read condescending. I can also see how talk about what wrestling is "supposed to" be "about" would read as condescending. My thought is that wrestling can primarily be about emotion and be analyzed. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. In fact I think without analysis, or thinking about a match or whatever it's really hard to even know what to do with visceral emotional response when it comes to ranking/discussing matches (obviously enjoying them is a different matter). I mean the FBI v. Dudley with D-Von debut from Queens is something I mark out for every time I see it, to the point where there is virtually nothing in wrestling I have viscerally enjoyed more, but I can't imagine actually arguing that it was better than something like Jumbo/Martel. I could assert that it was better and just say "emotion is there, the end" but I'm not sure what to do with that and if I didn't expand upon it people would think I was insane or trolling.

I think the second cage match is better

I think Stunning Grover had it number one which is cool. I think it has a solid shot at finishing top ten and probably as good a shot as anything as finishing top five

This show fucking ruled. Loved doing it. Dedicated to my fallen cat (literally my cat who died yesterday) Bin Laden. RIP

I'm too tired and congested to form a cogent thought right this second, but my point isn't to slam the match. I love the match. My point is that like the AJPW Set the end result really isn't even in doubt and without a "race for one" my interest in that aspect of things is unusually low considering the fact that I worked on this set. Dylan, on this point, I think the race for second is VERY interesting on this set. While (at least in my view) there is only one ***** "best match of 80s contender" type match on the set, I do think there is a real shit ton in the ****1/2 - 3/4 range. I can see guys putting Bock vs. Wahoo at #2, I can see people putting one of the Hansen matches at #2, I can see people putting Rose/Somers vs. Rockers at #2. I can see people putting that Sheiks/Adnan vs High Flyers cage match at #2. DVDR is down so I can't verify this, but I really think the race for #2 is wide open. Bock/Hennig draw is obviously the run away winner to the point where I almost don't even care what the rest of the results are because there is no serious threat to it. I'm mainly concerned about my ballot with this set. My guess is that the bloody Rose/Somers v. Rockers match finishes 2, but I don't think it's a lock. I actually expect there will be some surprises is the top ten.

I will always have a soft spot for DVDVR but it's been overrun by guys doing gimmick/schticky posts, open trolls and complete jackasses for a long time now. That's not to say it has no value, because I don't believe that or I would have quit posting there altogether. But I don't particularly miss it when it's down either. It does scare the holy hell out of me to think that all the 80's stuff is gone though and I think it is absolutely imperative that the 80's project be moved to this board at this point.

When I was watching a lot of WWF stuff a while back, the Piper stuff was shockingly good, vastly better than I was expecting. I also think his Portland stuff is good, though working with Buddy helps everyone. Still I think Piper is like Michael Hayes - a guy people called a limited/shit worker who was good on the stick for years because of things people in the business said and/or because they didn't have flawless execution all the time. In general I think both guys were very good workers during their peak years. If I were to ever do a top 100 again, Piper would have a good shot at making it

Heh, no clue whear you got St from but it's just Oliver John. Not sure why but I always put an St. in his name even though I've been corrected at least once before. Now I feel obligated to keep it as a trademark, in the vein of "thear" and "whear."

What Thatcher stuff have you been digging? LOVED the Jeff Cobb match from Supreme Pro earlier in the year. I also really liked his matches v. TJP and Willie Mack. There is an APW tag where he looked good and I liked his Gym Wars match v. Oliver St. John too even if it was really simple. There are a couple of other Supreme Pro matches where I thought he looked good but his opponent was questionable or the match ran off the rails from overbooking

I am more than open to suggestions. I've watched a couple of Joshi matches this year, but nothing I saw was particularly good. I know Athena has a buzz around her here in the states. What/who should I be looking for?

Loss - My tentative goal is to do a top 100 matches at years end to go along with a top 500 wrestlers. To me matches are considerably harder than wrestlers, but I've had more than a half dozen requests to do matches so I'll probably do it. Soup - On Sheamus, I think his best stuff this year has been really great, but in a weird sense I think he's been disappointing this year relative to last year. Part of that may be due to the fact that the Henry feud wasn't anywhere near as good as it looked on paper to me, another part may be that WWE ppv's have been really underwhelming this year, and an even bigger part of that may be the fact that I thought Sheamus was the best week-to-week performer in wrestling last year and this year he has been more overtly comedic even in the ring than I would like for a guy who had that run last year. Still I feel he's been very strong over all

The primary reason I rate Cesaro one is that he was able to do so much and have so many strong performances even though booking was his enemy and his opponents were pretty much a who's who of boring, mediocre and uninteresting. I doubt he can hold for the course of the year because I think he's going to end up tagging with Swagger and I can't see that giving him the opportunities to shine, but who knows

I'm thirding the love for the Wyatt's "mood" music which is perfect for them

I actually struggled a ton with 3-5. I could see a case for all of them over the other. I have LOVED Rush this year and he has real momentum to the point where he feels like he could end up being my number one guy when all is said and done. I agree that Virus hasn't had a match as good as Rush's 6/28 match, but I think Virus may have slightly more volume of stuff I've really liked. It's really close On Villano IV I have loved him, but he doesn't have the grand slam match he had last year. I could see him as high as 12, any higher I couldn't justify.

I"m not going to argue against Race/Martel because for your workrateish, go, go, go, style matches it's better than anything ROH/PWG/et does and is a very good match. Also I am confused about the Hansen/Blackwell and Hansen/Henning stuff in your post. Are you confusing the two in the post? In any case the difference to me between something like Race/Martel and Hansen/Hennig is that A. Hansen/Hennig has a real story to it and a real purpose and Race/Martel really doesn't and B. Hansen/Hennig is more of brawl, where as Race/Martel is a bomb throwing match of a different sort. On context, I get your point, but the reason it matters to me in this match is because everything about the match seemed designed to achieve a certain end and the work in the match directly reflected that. Also context absolutely matters to me at times in wrestling, because some matches are better in context and others are better out of context (which to me is a weakness of sorts).

Tentative Mid Year Top 100. Comments on omissions, placement, et. are welcomed. Also note this is based on the first six months of the calendar year, i.e. no dated "Observer" rules or anything in the last week comes into consideration. 1. Antonio Cesaro 2. Negro Casas 3. Daniel Bryan 4. Virus 5. Rush 6. Vordell Walker 7. LA Park 8. William Regal 9. The Big Show 10. Kyle Matthews 11. Trauma II 12. Alberto Del Rio 13. Jun Akiyama 14. Dean Ambrose 15. Villano IV 16. Demus 3:16 17. Blue Panther 18. Rampage Brown 19. Robbie Dynamite 20. Kazushi Sakuraba 21. Sheamus 22. Dean Allmark 23. KT Hammil 24. Trauma I 25. Shaun Tempers 26. Timothy Thatcher 27. Necro Butcher 28. Damien Wayne 29. Kahagas 30. Sami Callihan 31. Seth Rollins 32. James Mason 33. Negro Navarro 34. John Cena 35. Tajiri 36. Jack Gallagher 37. Freelance 38. Black Terry 39. Alan Extreme 40. Casandro 41. Yuki Ishikawa 42. Roman Reigns 43. Terrible 44. Chris Masters 45. Valiente 46. Shockercito 47. Ryota Hama 48. Chico Che 49. Jeff Cobb 50. Andrew Everett Cross (Chiva Kid) 51. Minoru Suzuki 52. Dr. Wagner Jr. 53. Ray Mendoza Jr. 54. Jay Briscoe 55. Cyrus The Destroyer 56. Mark Briscoe 57. Tracy Smothers 58. Eddie Kingston 59. Amazing Red 60. Harry Smith 61. Namajague 62. Too Cold Scorpio 63. Pierrothito 64. Astral 65. Shinsuke Nakamura 66. Fuego 67. Califan 68. Cancerbero 69. Sami Zayn (El Generico) 70. CM Punk 71. Mark Henry 72. Drew Haskins 73. Jeremiah Plunkett 74. Angel Blanco Jr. 75. Kassius Ohno 76. Dolph Ziggler 77. Tomohiro Ishii 78. Tank Norton 79. Rich Swann 80. Rey Hechicero 81. Manabu Suruga 82. Jack Swagger 83. D.O.C. 84. ACH 85. Dinamic Black 86. Austin Aries 87. Jeremy Wyatt 88. Derrick King 89. Michael Tarver 90. Akebono 91. Gunner 92. KAI 93. Keith Hammil 94. Andrew Alexander 95. Randy Orton 96. Wade Barrett 97. Kazunari Murakami 98. Savio Vega 99. Bully Ray 100. New Jack Last Five off: Jon Malus, JC Ice, Big E. Langston, Rob Conway, Raziel

I like Portland babyface Curt, better than AWA Curt aside from the period you are currently in the middle of watching. I think this set really illustrates to me how radically different my views on wrestling are from a lot of others. That's not to say there isn't a ton of agreement, because there is. But I think Henning/Hansen absolutely murders Race/Martel as a match and that's a match I enjoyed a whole hell of a lot. To me the Hennig/Hansen is what made Hennig. Before that he was an underdog babyface. Almost Greg Gagneish in that he was skilled, but sort of gangly in a way and almost the geeky son of the badass legendary dad. Then he comes into this match, saves the poor old fat diabetic getting his ass beat by the toughest guy on earth and on top of that he takes the war right to the badder than fuck world champion and goes toe-to-toe with him. It's a match fought on Hansen's terms and this greenhorn kid answers the call to the point where the champ can't get it done. In my eyes it's a tremendous, star making match. Watching for the set I was completely blown away with it and it lost nothing at all on subsequent viewings. In fact watching it in order I though it was even better than I originally gave it credit for being

Man I fucking LOVED the Wyatt Family debut. Legitimately creepy and disturbing stuff. I honestly hope they run and ruin one of the MITB matches

At this point I'm beating a dead horse, but strongly, strongly, strongly disagree on Hennig v. Hansen II. It's my number 2 and one of the only two matches on the set that I could conceivably see as a number one

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Dave starts a buzz and it trickles down. That's not to say people don't like what they see, but I see no reason to believe that Dave isn't the catalyst for a lot of the NJPW love we see today. That's also not to say people just like it to go along with Dave - Dave (and others) pimp it, people like it. Nothing wrong with that, even if I think NJPW is extremely overrated

The part where he promenades his "victim" around the hall right before it's executed.