Dylan Waco

I'm thinking that card might draw a bit. John My dream of Cena turning heel by cheating to beat the streak is still alive

This year has been the worst in ring year in the WWE in a long, long time. Having said that, that match would have been a U.S. MOTYC more often than not. I can think of very few tv matches I've seen in the last decade that I think are definitely better and I'm a guy who actually likes modern WWE Edit: Also should note that the two matches I have above it are matches I would rate as all time great level matches on first watch.

You aren't? When did you turn against Flair as GOAT? I don't want this to be read as a troll either. My point is that hierarchical structure in wrestling is something I also really like in practice to...except when I like guys who aren't really that sort of guy. Exceptions abound

And yet you are an advocate of Ric "stumbled into a win over George South" Flair.

I'm actually trying to think of any way in which Lesnar compares to Sid or Warrior as a worker and i'm really struggling.

I think this is absolutely true and can't be understated. I mean Malenko v. Guerrero from Uncensored is a good match, but I like it WAY more than anyone else because I was there.

Storyline matters, but it is not everything to me. It matters more if the story told in the match itself is compelling. If it is part of a bigger storyline that's even better but not essential (though most of my favorite matches would qualify). I didn't hate Okada v. Naito. It was pretty good, despite some flaws that were really hard for me to ignore and sucked me out of the match at times. But to answer your (perhaps rhetorical) question the selling was way better in Punk v. Henry. It had a structure that I thought worked well and was very well executed. Punk is a guy I generally do not like as an underdog, but he was very good as the underdog here because Henry is a great monster. The big shots looked big and the cut off spots were excellent. They built to the tension and big spots MUCH better than the NJPW match, as the payoff of Punk knocking Henry off his feet meant more than any single spot inthe Okada v. Naito match IMO. I actually thought the match had purpose as a way of showing that Henry is still the baddest motherfucker on the block even against the theoretical king of the hill. I much preferred it for those reasons and others

The whole show was great. Wasn't a single segment that wasn't at least decent. Henry/Punk is easily the U.S. MOTY at this point

I added Mark Henry v. CM Punk from tonight's (the night after Mania) Raw. Really this was a fucking great tv match. Easily the best Raw match since Cena v. Rey, and honestly on first watch I thought this was the better bout even with the problem of a commercial that missed most of a Punk hope spot sequence. Both guys were really good in this. Punk actually sold the damage from Jericho's attack on his back and ribs last night better here than he did in their match. Henry was his awesome shit talking self and was really working some stiff shots in this. There were a couple of cut off spots in here that were absolutely sickening. Lots of good teases as it kept building and every time you thought the comeback was there it wasn't. Henry even gave us a nice belly flop bump. Henry's selling in this match was infuckingcredible as he was given Punk's shots enough to look like they had him on the ropes, but not enough to make him look like less than a monster. Punk working a Tajiri like flurry to bring him down with a high kick ruled. I also loved the stiffness of the Punk high knees and this is an instance where I thought the count out finish was brilliant as it re-established Henry as an ass kicker, but without totally killing Punk. Post-match stuff was great too. Awesome match.

He does a good one in his Rufus Black match from this year which is on youtube and several other goods ones last year in tons of matches that are online

Kyle Matthews has a really good one.

Honestly it's to the point where if Dave really, really likes a match the odds are greater that I will dislike it, than they are that I will like it.

I would have rather had a really good ten minute match like Finlay v. JBL for example, than that shit. They could have recovered but the rest of that first hour ranged from horribly uninteresting to outright terrible. Certainly the worst hour of a WWE ppv I can remember in a long, long, long time.

I posted this on the DVDVR first, but these are my thoughts on first watch (though I do indeed back up Will about seeing Mania live) Didn't care for the show at all, but honestly it might have been partly due to the atmosphere of watching it in a recently revamped bar, with shitty seating. Opener immediately pissed me off and was made worse by the tons of feces that was to follow. Orton v. Kane was as good a match as it possibly could have been and actually had a couple of sequences that I really liked. But it's Orton v. Kane - there's not a match on the roster involving "top" guys I could have cared less about. I thought Show v. Cody was pretty bad. The dosey do shit to set up the weak finish was just...not good. Cody really came across like the Cody that I thought looked really lost v. Booker T on the house show I went to in Dec. Divas tag was comically long and just odd all around. At this point I thought there was no question that the first hour was the worst opening hour I could recall on a Mania. From there the show got better, but there was nothing that really knocked my socks off or even came close. HITC is a match I probably would have liked live, but on tv it didn't connect with me at all. I thought last years match was decidedly better because it was a match about HHH v. Taker. The first half of this match had the feel of an old gay couple trying to make a touch decision about putting down a beloved pet. Just lots of hammy stuff that I didn't like at all. The match had bigger "build" than last year, but I liked the bomb throwing nature of last years match better as it fit the two guys involve. Also - and I know I'm probably in the minority - there wasn't a single near fall I bought in this match. Last year the tombstone fall really was a kickstarter to the match and made me believe. This year there was nothing even close to having that feel. It was laid out as well as it could have been and for WWE bioepic style matches it was hardly bad. But I just didn't buy any of it. Team Teddy v. Team Johnny was pretty weak for the first portion, but I did like the stretch run a lot as it had that sort of Smackdown/Raw main event vibe which is what I wanted out of the match. Henry and Ziggler were a lot of fun in the match and even though the shit with Eve was annoying and undermined it, Ryder actually came across like a fairly big deal to me. Punk v. Jericho was good, but the camera angles were horribly unflattering for a lot of the shots, making numerous spots look far worse than they would have otherwise. When my daughter is sitting next to me saying "fake" every third spot there is a problem. I liked Jericho's back targeting, though I didn't think much of Punk's selling of it. Still this had some really big bumps and the finishing stretch was about as good a multi-reversal submission stretch as you are going to get. That's not something I'm a huge fan of, but it was well done. I like the main event, but Rock winning just felt wrong. Granted Cena winning would have felt wrong too, but that's the problem with a match like this. Cena heeling in a variety of ways was pretty cool. Not sold that the bearhug was the right base to work and there was a point where it really felt like a match where Rock was just trying to get his shit in, but by that point in the night I was pretty cranky so who knows how true to form that was. I did think the finish worked pretty well and over all I really thought Cena put in a heck of a performance. But as a whole I didn't think it approached being a great match. Kind of funny really that I thought the build for the show sucked but was still really looking forward to the show in terms of in ring stuff. As it stood there wasn't a single match I would "nominate" in a MOTY thread. Oh..and Rock calling the DDT spot on camera was the most amusing thing of the night

I'm going to watch it tonight, but how crazy excited was he over it?

Do you like Jim Breaks? The Adrian Street v. Johnny Saint match is the best WoS match I've ever seen.

Walton was the voice of a promotion and as responsible for getting over everyone under a unique business model. I can see how absence of near falls would be hard to get used to, but honestly I have grown to viscerally hate near fall heavy matches, and admire matches that work on a more definitive model

Edited in a new match at number nine. It's up on youtube and is the sort of match that makes WWE house shows so entertaining

I have no clue how true that is or not, though it is reasonably easy to get real numbers on what a building holds even if other sporting events/teams "lie." I seem to recall the real number for Silverdome being 81k

Classic. I broke down and spent the 2 bucks on the DGUSA ppv. My stream was shit during the Tozowa match. I'll start a thread about the show when it is over.

Who knows the truth of the Zane story. I think it is nearly impossible that Meltzer made it up, but the fact that Zane was the sole source and was dead when he came out has led others to make that accusation. I think it is very possible that 78k was the PAID number. What I do know is that if the actual capacity of that building is 81k for football, based on the visual evidence we have there is zero argument that 78k was the total number of people in the building. It's literally not possible

Someone asked for comp with Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards. To me they are pretty close to the same beast so it is hard to see a reason to go through both but I'll try. Edwards is more babyfaced looking and strikes me as a guy who visually would have been a good aesthetic addition to an 80's blowjob babyface tag team. Obviously you wouldn't want a guy who can't/won't sell in the Morton role, but as a homeless man's version of Robert Gibson he may have been serviceable. I have seen people argue that Edwards is less carryable than Davey is, which may be true, but that makes hiding him on the apron even more sensible. As it stands he's a pretty awful wrestler though I have some hope for him for reasons I can't fully explain. He seems like the kind of guy that might actually get good in developmental, whereas Richards seems like the kind of guy that would go to developmental, Low Ki it up and eat a few Bionic Elbow's right out the door. Richards is obviously a terrible wrestler. He's the epitome of a guy who runs through spots like they are nothing, selling nothing, conveying nothing, et. The only thing that matters is the amount of "impact" and the number of near falls. He's shit. He's worse than HHH in pretty much every respect. HHH v. Taker was a match with a lot of flaws, but guys throwing bombs and laying around cause they are old, is a lot better than guys throwing bombs, standing up, throwing more bombs, et because they are wild and young. Also Richards is not a big enough piece of shit to make you believe he is going to beat a guy, with his finish, in a match that rightly or wrongly is seen as "his to win." You just don't believe in Richards near falls like you did with HHH and the tombstone for a variety of reasons. But this is an instance where HHH being a real life fuck face contributes to him being a clearly better wrestler

Oh I think NAO was clearly the most over act in DX. I literally don't even think it's arguable and I don't even mean that as a back handed shot at HHH. In my high school wrestling was crazy popular and NAO was probably the most mimed and talked about aspects of the show, with the possible exception of The Rock

J.T. Southern I haven't really seen that much Southern. IIRC his satellite promo segments during Van Hammer feud included better HHH style mic work than we usually got from HHH, but that's not to say he was better on average. Soldat Ustinov Bix was ranting to me about how much Ustinov sucked the other day, but consider a few things. First of all he had the absolute shittiest Russian accent ever. That goes a long way with me, because in modern hipster cultural enjoying things for ironic reasons is really "in." I could see Ustinov taking off today for that reason. He would probably be a great foil for Santino, or better yet someone Ace could bring in as Otunga's former KGB bodyguard. Eventually they'd have to give him the subtle/slow Virgil style face turn and he's not as good a worker as Virgil, but I could see it working very well. Ustinov also had a really fun match with Jerry Lawler and was pretty good about being a guy who could get "lost" in a quality tag match to the point where he wasn't a distraction, whereas HHH would never have the sense to let the guys who are actually good do the work. Ustinov is clearly worse than HHH, but I think a lot of that is circumstantial The Russian Brute Russian Brute wasn't any good, but he did have Ox Baker as a manager. I can guaranfuckingtee you HHH would never do anything as cool as having Ox Baker be his manager. Tommy Jammer Jammer is a perfectly serviceable lame babyface. He would have made a decent addition to the SMW roster in 93 and probably would have gotten over huge with coal miner's daughters. I don't think he's as good as Bobby Blaze, but he would have been a respectable Bobby Blaze understudy. HHH was a pretty shitty Michaels under study and I don't even like Michaels, but you still have to give this to HHH. Mitch Snow Snow was not around long enough to rate above HHH, but on merit I think he was probably on track to be better. Had sound mechanics, a unique finish, was good at making squash matches fun, worked well with guys on top the few times he had a chance.

HHH fucking Steph is probably somewhat overstated, as attaching ones self to Vince's obvious lust interest was probably just as wise a career move