Dylan Waco

I was kind of lukewarm on the final. I didn't hate anything on the show, but the only matches that really grabbed me were the opener - which was fun but not great - and the Honma/Shibata v. Bullet Club D-Team match. I did get a kick out of Tanahashi being the worst guy in a match involving Yano, Cpt. New Japan and Sakuraba, and Ibushi winning was the right decision, but as a whole the show did little for me. Edit: Ibushi v. Naito was decent enough I guess, but some of the stuff missed badly, the timing was really off at times, and I thought the build was all wrong. The head drop heavy, tribute to late 90's AJPW was perversely entertaining, but as a whole the match was more what I feared it might be, than what I hoped it could be.

I actually forgot about Savage v. Crush which I did like the last time I watched it. I also like the feel good moment of Bret winning, and honestly the Yoko match is not bad.

21 and 28 standout to me as the "odd" picks here. 21 is a tough one because a lot of it hinges on how highly you view Angle v. Shawn. I have no use for the match at all (don't hate it, but I don't think it's particularly good either), so I don't think much of the show. I will grant that it has some significance in the sense that it was the first time that Taker's streak felt like a big deal, and the first MITB match was on the show. But as a top-to-bottom card I just can't see it as a top ten Mania. Not a bad show necessarily, but there are shows in the previous tier - particularly WM 7 - which I think are easily better. 28 I think is actually a pretty bad show in a lot of ways. You've got the Bryan 18-second squash, Kane and Orton paired together, a poor video game match between Rock and Cena headlining the show, Punk wasted in a stupid match with Jericho that had a terrible build, and then that awful HITC match. I understand that there are people who enjoy that match, but I've never really understood why. I thought the Mania 27 match was a vastly better match, as it lacked the absolutely abysmal, overacting of Shawn Michaels as ref (which would be universally panned if it was literally any other wrestler in the history of wrestling) and had more believable near falls. To me that was the match that showed Taker had lost his Mania magic. I've used this line before but the match was basically worked as an old gay couple trying to make a tough decision about whether or not to put down their terminally ill dog, which might work for community theatre, but not a big time wrestling event. I thought 28 was weak at the time and I think it looks even worse in the rear view. I'd say it's easily worse than the much maligned 27, it's just that it has a main even that feels and looks like a bigger deal on paper. I could see a strong, strong case for this as a bottom five Mania. Could maybe see a case for it as a middle of the pack show if you are into Shawn and HHH's moral debate on euthanasia. No idea how it gets into a top ten. On 3 I get why you would have it number two, and I enjoy the show as a whole more than a lot of people too, but if we are talking about pure in ring aesthetics I don't know if it even makes the top half. That said I agree that it almost has to make the top tier just based on its significance (both the significance the company places on it, and the actual significance of it relative to the landscape of the time). I think more than any other show it illustrates the challenges of a list like this where you are trying to balance a multitude of factors in making your assessment. If you weigh business, significance, et. heavily it's almost impossible to leave it out of the top five, and a very strong argument could made that it has to be number one. If you weight the "artistic" end heavily it's a middle-of-the-pack show. I agree that 24 and 7 should both be in the top ten. 14 feels really high to me too, but I'm not prepared to bury that choice at the moment. 10 is an interesting pick that I think is tough because you have the high highs and then not much else. This might sound strange but I think 23 might be my number one and would be no worse than top three for me. Two legitimately great matches in Michaels/Cena and Taker/Batista, some solid and different stuff on the undercard with MVP/Benoit, a good MITB match and the ECW eight-man tag, and the pageantry of the Trump/McMahon feud playing out in a better than expected match. The show did massive business and the atmosphere for it was great. In some ways I think that show is the Mania they have tried to replicate every year since, with varying degrees of success. In terms of being a "complete" show I think it is better than virtually every other Mania barring perhaps 17 and 19, but those shows ended in big downer moments (The Austin turn, and the Brock botch on the finish).

Serious question that I fear will be read as a troll - what is the difference between what Zayn/Cesaro did in that match and what Flair is often said to have done (including by many of his biggest supporters) in his matches? I.E. "getting shit in" and clearly aiming to have great matches regardless of whether or not that was right for the moment were sort of standards of Flair's work, or at least they are assumed to be standards of Flair's work. So what's the difference? Zayn/Cesaro having the first live match in WWE Network history is an important part of the context of that match. The expectation of the promotion was that they would go out there and steal the show. I prefer the 2/3 falls match myself, but I think you have to recognize that they were put in that spot for a reason. If the argument is that there aren't enough heat building segments in modern wrestling I could buy that and would tend to agree with it. I think that is why when those things are done so well they stand out more now (the Spud/EC3 match being a great example of this, but also Dustin In Peril in the WWE). That said I think it's increasingly clear that many of these indie guys were hired with the expectation that they would be "super workers" for lack of a better term. You can argue about whether or not that's why a talent should be hired (I myself see no problem with it in 2015), but I think it's almost self-evident at this point that the WWE sees value in that for whatever reason. Anyhow I don't know that I would ever fault a match for breaking the mold of a promotion per se. There are certain things that won't work certain places and wrestlers should be cognizant of that, but I'm not sure that is the same thing. What I would say is that I can appreciate the ability of people to wrestle certainly styles "well" or at least to the expectation of an audience, while also considering that style to be grossly inferior, or even bad. Also I think there are times where matches are great in a vacuum, but if you step back and look at the context there are aspects of them that are very hard to defend (I haven't watched the full episode of SD in years, but this is my memory of the 3/14/04 Eddie v. Rey match, which might get me in hot water with the Cooke family). I'm not sure that directly addresses the topic of this thread, but it feels relevant for some reason.

Fuck it, nominating Kyle Matthews. Here are a few reviews. I'll do a big write up on him in his thread later. Jimmy Rave Approved v. Kyle Matthews/Tank Norton/Jessico Blue/Mr. Showtime (Elimination Match) NWA/DSCW 11/3/11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD_FKqd5U4s I absolutely fucking loved this. I have no doubt you could pick this apart as Blue is one of the least physical wrestlers I've ever seen, and this is chalk full of indyish spots, but I thought those spots looked good as fuck. The Rave led team is a bunch of guys I don't know offhand, but they are all in matching gear and come across as a Kaentei'sh heel stable with Rave as a Southern mans Taka Minchinoku. Crowd is fucking bananas for this and Matthews keeps leading them in a stomp/clap "We Will Rock You" beat. They segmented this really well as it went almost 25 minutes and was back and fourth between a more traditional match and a balls to the wall sprint. All the eliminations were believable. Tank Norton is one of my favorite indy guys live and he was awesome here just punishing dudes with his obesity and freakshow spots. Every time Rave and Matthews were in the match was really great and the finishing run with Rave and Matthews was just brutally stiff, with Matthews taking some crazy bumps, hitting a fucking lunatic tope, et before having the win stolen out from under him on a sweet Rave counter. Super enjoyable match, with a tremendous atmosphere. Honestly this is the sort of match that would have been a MOTYC for me if I had seen it live. Kyle Matthews v. Shaun Tempers - LPN 2/16/13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeJRObpf3Ew I thought this was good as fuck, but I am something of a mark for both guys. Matthews is a really good babyface and Tempers is a really good heel and this is a match where they both fit into the script absolutely perfectly. When Matthews is on offense early Tempers is awesome selling the fuck out of his "technician" spots and scrambling like hell to sell the little touches like the finger stomps. It's animated selling, maybe even over the top, but in a packed high school gym in the South, with a crowd that is batshit crazy for the babyface it is the right way to work. I could see some not digging on Tempers offense but I love it because I don't think he did a single thing offensively in the match that wasn't pure heel, whether it was an eye gouge, nasty stomps, tying up Matthews in the ropes, or rubbing his forearm across the face. Even his initial transition was a full rotation, Eddie Gilbert style hot shot which is about as heel as it gets. Matthews is really good selling underneath, while keeping the crowd interested and Tempers has the taunts that you need to work this setting. I absolutely loved the big run of Matthews offense that led to him getting cut off with a Northern Lights Suplex. Matthews took a couple of nice bumps into the corners down the stretch, but man Tempers big nut shot bump on the top turnbuckle was sold great and completely unexpected. Then Matthews fucking decks him with a dropkick while he's still sitting ont he top rope and he sells the fuck out of it too and Matthews has the decency to still sell the damage before rattling off a couple of more big spots for a near fall. The back and fourth interplay off of Matthews offense at the end, also led to a good Tempers near fall and a solid finish. Very good match. Best indy match I've seen this year by a wide margin. Kyle Matthews v. Jimmy Rave - DSCW 1/27/13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yo9pBsTruI...tKiC8GA&index=1 Rave is back with ROH again so I'm not sure how often he will show up on random Southern indies, which is too bad because he was really good in this. Of course I am a Matthews fan, but I was super impressed with Rave in this as he was so good at getting himself into the right spots for the big transition moves and offense of Matthews, on top of the fact that he still radiates scumbag with the best of them. Loved the early bailing on the lock up spot and some of the ways they zipped through counters were really sharp. Rave had tons of snap on all of his offense, including a really nasty looking superplex. The spot with Rave trying to bail out again and Matthews following him through in one motion with the low rope tope was awesome. I also really loved the big battle on the apron sequence, with the sick Matthews bump and great count out spot. I also really liked the finish, as Rave finds himself right in position for Matthews finish and cheats his way out for the win. Not as good as Matthews v. Tempers, but pretty close. Kyle Matthews v. KT Hamill - DSCW 8/2/13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9kN-gG08h4 I absolutely loved this, to the point where it's probably in my top tier of U.S. indie matches so far this year. Both guys are guys I dig a lot, but they have their flaws and I feared in a face v. face match like this we might end up with them bringing out the worst in each other but I was wrong. The first seven minutes or so of this were totally unlike anything I can remember seeing in indie wrestling this year. I don't want to sell it as an out of this world segment because it really wasn't and this term will probably end up leading to disappointment for some people, but basically it was worked like a redneck maestros match with Matthews working flashier escapes and KT working old school mat spots before coming up to reset. No way in hell this compares to the best Lucha stuff or even close, but it was a really unique way to work a match like this and I liked a lot of it a good bit, especially KT's ragdolling from the wastelock and Matthews working a crossface out of a schoolboy attempt. KT ends up taking over on Matthews back/ribs and he works a variety of old school bases, all of which look pretty decent, though nothing outstanding. The key is it's building heat and the crowd here is completely diehard for Matthews. I liked a lot of the hopespots they worked out of this, particularly Matthews escaping a pinning combo from a body scissors with a rocking chair style hold (and then KT escaping this by pulling his hands forward quickly, sending Matthews head smacking into the mat). They ended up building to the big spot sequence really effectively, with abandoning the selling you want. I really liked how they worked all the highspots in this actually and the finishing run was a rare case of a back and fourth bit that actually saw solid transitions and good enough selling in between to be believable. Also KT sold the fuck out of Matthews corner dropkick and made it look more like a finish than anyone has all year. There were a few brief moments where I thought both guys selling could have been a bit better, and I wish Hamill had hit his boss looking top rope elbow, instead of his middling look big splash off the top (though I kind of love that guys in the South are still busting that move out as a true highspot), but those are minor quirks. I imagine most people will think I am overrating this, but this is my kind of match and a good example of why I am really high on both of these guys.

This will sound like bullshit piggybacking now, but I was originally going to compare Spud/EC3 to the Myzteziz v. Aguayo Jr. To me I thought Spud v. EC3 was clearly better. In part that's because it had a definitive, and in my view great, finish. I really am a fan of the finish where you have the valiant face kick out of one kill shot, only to go immediately down for the next. It's a nice way of protecting someone, without denying the fans the finality of a real finish. I would say this was absolutely that sort of finish and I would compare it to the finish of RR00, with Foley kicking out of the pedigree, but falling to the pedigree on tacks. By contrast Aguayo v. Myzteziz had the low blow finish, which was fine for a non-blowoff, but also felt kind of ridiculous in a match as violent as that one (and yes I know what how low blows are treated in lucha, it still feels lame when two guys are bleeding, there is brawling all match, et.). I also thought the Spud performance was the best individual performance I've seen all year. That perception may have been aided by my less than favorable view of TNA and the fact that the match came out of nowhere (though I was looking forward to it). Even still I thought the work put in by Spud absolutely smoked the performance of both Myzteziz and Aguayo. In theory the run-ins should have hurt the match, but they had no bearing on the finish, and actually set up some very good near falls and moments. To that end I can't even be really critical of those. I actually thought the close up of Aguayo's blood spurting face with him sitting there like a bobblehead doll was a more hamfisted "this is drama!" moment than anything in Spud v. EC3 (and I liked that moment, I just thought it was REALLY melodramatic). In any case I would recommend people watch both matches, but I didn't think the AAA match was near MOTY level, and I thought Spud v. EC3 absolutely was

The thing about Spud v. EC3 it was that it was a completely unique match by modern standards. You simply don't see well built feuds, in big match atmospheres that build to the big time bloodbath finish anymore. I agree that EC3's offense isn't super compelling or interesting, but Spud was so,so good selling here. Really everything Spud did was good as his big spots were great, his timing was excellent, his facial expressions and body language dead on, et. If you have followed the feud at all this match is better than if you watch it in isolation, but even in isolation I think it's really hard to deny that it's a great match. I know some people didn't like the interference, but hard to complain much with the way it was used, and I actually think it made the near falls seem bigger than they would have otherwise. I'd recommend people watch this with the pre-match (Spud's "God Save The Queen" singalong with the crowd is awesome) and post-match to get the full effect. I've watched it three times already, and I'm starting to convince myself it's my MOTY.

Mason is very, very good when he's on. Probably my favorite guy in the UK scene actually. But he's so self contained that to me it would feel weird to include him in something like this. In a way he is a victim of where he works which I hate, but I just can't picture him on a top 100 guy, just as it would be hard for me to rate someone like Kyle Matthews.

Agree on that. Spud literally looked like one of the top wrestlers in the world in that match. I watched the match on replay and it absolutely holds up. It's especially good if you watch it with the pre and post match, and if you've been following the feud, but even as a stand alone it's great. Totally unique by modern standards as well.

The opener with Roode and EY was really good too, though not on the level of Spud v. ECIII which was a tremendous match worked with Spud basically doing a Lawler tribute act. That whole feud has really delivered and from that perspective I can absolutely see an argument for it over the Triple Threat. But it's not the U.S. MOTY because it took place in the UK (which added to the match because the crowd was really into Spud).

I actually think Heenan is a perfectly reasonable bottom five-ish pick. There are very few performers who could command a crowd as well as him, and that command was not reserved for his ringside role as a manager. There are AWA tags where he is at the level or better than the people surrounding him, and lots of times those people are great workers. He is an all time great bumper and bleeder, but to me what makes him viable for something like this is the fact that he was so good building heat when working on top, working the crowd when on the apron in tags, and just generally playing his role as a slimy, cheating heel. I would prefer to see him have a really great singles match on tape, but I wouldn't think it was odd at all to see him on someones list.

I find this to be a bizarre complaint. My suggestion would be to post a compelling thread regarding wrestling history, the old product, et. If it is something of interest discussion will follow.

I thought the cage match was really, really bad. Just awful.

In the scenario described it's not at all clear they would be "sent back to developmental" because it's not clear that's what NXT would be. It's increasingly unclear if that's really what it is now.

Keep in mins the current ROH champ is going to NXT sooner rather than later (I'm hearing 6/20 may be his last show).

Same here

If you consider the timing of the show relative to the Mania calendar, and the available talent roster, that may be the worst Raw of all time.

Only when it suits you evidently. I have no clue what this means.

HHH is working. He always is.

For "name" guys virtually all of them.

09 ECW was an extension of the universe that already existed in WWE for better or worse. In a sense it was self contained, but they weren't running separate shows, and in no way was the show designed to cater to the indie fan. On top of it ECW during that era was not tasked with the literal training of new talent, even if you can argue that they were tasked with the "development" of some of them. If you are asking to compare Zayn to Christian, I still don't think it's really the same thing. Zayn is portrayed as the babyface ace of NXT, the top guy on a show that exists in it's own universe, which is increasingly a universe that is meant to resemble the universe of Zayn's origin. Christian was the ace of a third tier brand, who's biggest matches and storylines - while good - were never given main event heading on the companies big events, and rarely ever saw the light of day on the flagship show of the company. Its weird because Zayn is working in a studio setting, and Christian was working in major arenas, but Zayn feels like the top star of a budding independent promotion, whereas Christian was basically a really great TV champion working at Center Stage every week.

In theory I think you are right, BUT what if we end up with a situation where Zayn for example is never called up because he's the "ace" of the touring NXT brand?

What Verne did was push westward. In and of itself that's not a bad idea, because there were open spaces that were easy to fill with little challenge, and other places where the long timer promotions were either dead, or on their ass ready to be destroyed by any competitor worth a shit. Some of these towns ended up being very important to Verne, namely Denver and Salt Lake City, which was actually the best town for them by far in the dying days if you can imagine that. The problem was threefold as I see it. Firstly the trips were really long. You rarely hear AWA guys bitch about this in interviews the way you do say Stampede or Watts guys, and I think in part that is because the AWA schedule was a bit lighter IIRC (the western towns were monthly, not weekly), and Verne was flying at least some of the talent out to some of these shows at points (perhaps not as early as 82, but I know it was happening a year or so later). Having said that these towns were really far apart, with not a lot in between. In other words these "big" shows were not as easy to integrate into a regular schedule as shows in the Midwest/home region were. I think this is one of the reasons that they were never really able to take off in Phoenix for example - you could run there, but if you didn't draw a good house it was a far tract for a one off failure, surrounded (maybe) by some weak spots shows, in small towns, with no connection to your brand. The talent roster, while really underrated in my view, was not particularly well suited for expansion in the early 80's. Yes you had Hogan, but you also had a lot of older talent, or talent that felt "regional" and I don't think there is any reason to believe that Verne would have had a clue how to repackage these guys to take advantage of their strengths and obscure their weaknesses. In fact I'm not sure if there was a promoter in the country less likely to have been successful at that than Verne in 1982. Finally, and most importantly, focusing exclusively on Westward expansion, and pushing to the coast in particular was just stupid. There "big prize" and the end point of all of those trips was the Bay Area, a territory that had been killed dead by the late 70's, and a place which was hands down Verne's worst drawing market of any size. It simply was not worth it to run there, given the travel costs, especially when you consider the fact that Verne had absolutely great opportunities for logical, and geographically contiguous expansion right there in places like St. Louis (which was ripe right around the time Verne was looking for expansion, and even if you want to argue the town was being killed off, the costs of failure their were MUCH lower), and the old Ohio/Indiana/Michigan region, which had a multitude of big markets that could have been exploited.

Verne's method of expansion was poorly thought out and destined to fail. The whole thing is a weird thought experiment, because I think we all agree that someone would have gone national eventually even without Vince, but it's hard to envision anyone who was on the landscape at the time who would have been successful

I have liked AAA more and more over the last year or so and think they have easily been better than CMLL so far this year (which pains me to say because I really enjoyed CMLL a lot over the last three years or so). I actually think this is about as good a lineup as they could possibly deliver. I do wish Machine Rocker was on the show, but aside from that pretty much everyone I want to see is there, and they are in places where I think the potential for something good, or at least interesting, is strong. Of course I'm interested to see the Rey match and how he is presented, but I'm equally interested to see how they book Cage v. Patron as I think that will give us some clues about how the Lucha Underground/AAA connection is going to work going forward. Aero Star is one of my favorite guys in the world so I am always hyped to see him, and I think the opening trios could be really good. In my dream world we get a Rey v. Pentagon Jr. singles feud, though that has about 1% chance of happening, so I'll just have to take what interactions I get in that match.