Dylan Waco

Just recorded a long podcast on this, but basically that Rumble comes down to this - everyone ended up looking worse. Everyone. Hard to imagine booking a worse match if you tried.

Weird show in that none or the matches interest me much at all, but the possibilities and uncertainty around Mania card has me interestsed in this show as a whole. I like EC as a gimmick match, but putting an end to that Ppv has enhanced the Rumbles importance

A big part of the issue here is that a lot of how you look at promotions is based on your expectations for the promotion, the hype surrounding it, and preferences you have as a fan. No matter how objective we might try to be as a critics, at the end of the day we are still fans, and when talking about what promotion you think is better you can't really eliminate those things from the equation. To hear some people talk I am a huge critic of New Japan, but I don't really know that I am. It's just that I hold them to the same standard I hold every other promotion. If the argument OJ is making in this thread is that CMLL is not being held to the same standard that is probably true on some level, though I don't really dispute many of the criticisms OJ made about CMLL - and yet at the end of the day I would still much rather watch the average CMLL match, and given that I could live without every seeing Okada or Tanahashi wrestle again, even conceding the superiority of top of the card NJPW booking (generally speaking anyhow, I still think booking Nak v. Okada on two days build at the G1 Final was stupid and would be viciously attacked if it were any other promotion on Earth) it's not a promotion I can ever really be invested in. As bad as CMLL booking can be I genuinely love Rush. I genuinely love Negro Casas. I've become a major fan of Titan. This is to say nothing of guys like Virus, Hechicero, Cavernario, et, et, who I aren't promoted and pushed as well, but I still feel like I have a stake in. With NJPW the guys I connect to the most as a fan are Nakamura, Ishii, Honma, Shibata, Suzuki, Kushida, Liger, Tanaka and Komatsu - of those at most two are guys who I feel are being used to their most potential are close to it. You could certainly argue that CMLL's historical record of doing that is wore, or even that they are worse even now, but in 2014 I thought the four top stars of En Busca de un Idolo, Virus, Rush, Titan and Casas were used pretty well more often than not. Should I have maybe voted for NJPW first in the WON Awards for Promotion of the Year? Maybe. I could see a case, and I did mull it over quite a bit. I have zero problem with them winning. But when you have people literally comparing Gedo/Jedo booking to the work of God, the fact that guys who I think have "it" aren't getting pushed better when I think the promotion needs more depth at the top of the card stands out more than similar problems do in CMLL where my expectations are perhaps lower and/or are tempered by the stylistic and business model differences.

I watched the Cobb/Kratos tag. Didn't think much of the match (not bad, but not good really either), but I thought for a first time effort the commentary was pretty good, and well above the level of what I see out of a lot of indies. I thought there was a good balance of background on the wrestlers, discussion of strategy/tactics they were employing, and calling of the action itself. There were a few moments where Tim and Eric cross talked a bit, but nothing bad really and I'm not sure I would have even noticed if I wasn't paying really close attention to them. I thought Eric could have been a bit more active, but that's minor. My other criticisms would be fairly minor as well namely that stuff like "these guys" was said a few times and should generally be avoided, but that is a tough thing to do particularly with a new promotion featuring talent you might not be completely used to. Also while I thought Tim's excitement on the big spots was good and reactive in the right way, I thought he went to that well a bit too often. But over all I thought it was a strong first time effort Also unless I'm mistaken, FLIK worked this show too, so at minimum I'll check out that match also.

I will have more to say when I get home, but I'd be interested to hear more explicit thoughts about this from OJ. I get that you are always arguing for a more broadly critical approach, but this thread and what drove you to create it (Twitter comments you haven't referenced individually) feels like a backhanded way of arguing in favor of NJPW without actually doing it.

Who are you on Twitter OJ? I voted CMLL above NJPW for Promotion of the Year, but it was a tough decision that I had to think about. From a pure in ring perspective I would much rather watch a random CMLL match, than a random NJPW match, though at least last year I thought NJPW had more very good or better matches than CMLL did. That said, if you were to take the best five CMLL matches and stack them up next to the best five NJPW matches I'd probably take CMLL, though it's close. Both promotions will have three people in my top ten for the year, and both will probably end up with seven people in my top forty (Titan, Cavernario, Hechicero, Cachorro, Dragon Lee, Rush and Negro Casas for CMLL, Nakamura, Kushida, Styles, Suzuki, Ishii, Shibata and Honma for NJPW). CMLL is deeper in terms of people who I enjoy on at least some level, though a lot of those guys are rarely used to their full potential. In terms of business I think most people would just default go with NJPW and I get why. But CMLL is a bizarre promotion in terms of how it is run and promoted, making it tough to compare directly to NJPW. In terms of big show success, CMLL's biggest hit was bigger than NJPWs, though it did have the advantage of being the payoff of a feud that has gone on forever. If you are just looking at raw numbers CMLL almost certainly drew more total fans over the year, and I believe they had more 10k plus houses, but those are both deceptive metrics. NJPW certainly had more sellouts of major shows (way more), but in a sense that's a deceptive metric too because they aren't running the same buildings every week, and they had exactly three shows all year in buildings as big or bigger than Arena Mexico. Of course they do have the IPPV business and NJPW World, but the latter has not been as successful as they hoped, and I've always been a bit unsure about what to make of the former other than the fact that it's obviously been a very strong revenue stream for the company. At the end of the day I voted for CMLL largely because I feel like they accidentally stumbled into creating several interesting new stars as a result of En Busca de un Idolo tournament. One of the big irritants to me with NJPW over the last few years is that a guy like Shibata or Honma will be walked right up to the brink of a meaningful push and then be pulled back. This year the G1 absolutely was great, and in terms of volume of good matches it was better than En Busca (shitty abbreviation I know). But the goals of the two tournaments were different, and I enjoyed En Busca more and more because the dynamic was so interesting and it was like watching people become big deals right before our eyes. Meanwhile in the G1 NJPW had a chance to make Shibata a top guy - and didn't. They could have done the same thing with Ishii who was arguably the most over guy in the company going into the tournament - and didn't. They could have given Honma the big win over Shibata that his story in the tourney desperately called for - and didn't. Instead they gave away the most protected match in the company on a couple of day build - and it was between two of the three established top tier guys in the company. Yes the nature of En Busca was to expose/create stars, and that's arguably not the goal of G1, but NJPW is a promotion that I feel is stale at the top and really needs to add some depth to that top level. They had chances to do that and didn't, so I chose CMLL over them. But I could see an argument both ways

Heyman at his best is the best promo in wrestling. He's also one of the worst when he's at his worst. He was at his best maybe 1/3 of the time in 2014

Beyond did a Rawlternative show tonight for free on YouTube featuring over a dozen matches, each from a different indie fed. I thought there were some major flaws in the presentation of the show (no break in between matches, only one match having a even pace to it, lots of excess, et.) but by and large I thought it was a really cool idea and a very good effort. Seeing the Mike Bailey v. Kevin STeen match in full as the "opener" was really cool and a nice treat. I also really liked the seedy Brian Kendrick match, Keith Walker v. Eddie Kingston, Chris Hero v. Colin Delaney, Watanabe v. Andy Dalton (the only match on the "show" that wasn't largely a go, go, go affair) and The Bucks v. Super Smash Brothers. Other unrelated indie notes - PWS new t.v. show is actually really awesome as a sort of hybrid of 1993 ECW and modern indie culture. SAW has an awesome Drew Haskins squash this week and a great Bill Dundee music video hyping his upcoming appearance for them at their 8th Anniversary show. WWC TV has had some really fun stuff already, including a Jinder Mahal strap match against Ray Gonzalez, an extremely fun (but clipped) Chicano v. Bronco brawl, and a 2015 Chicky Starr tag match that is legitimately good. But my favorite indie match of the year comes to us from Johnny Rodz gym as a New Japan Young Boy teams up with Finlay's kid to wrestle a guy in a clown suit and a dude named after an autoparts store.

I will eventually watch both shows in full, but what should I watch immediately besides Cavernario v. Cometa and Dorada v. Sombra?

As a general rule of thumb that is the best Japanese Wrestling source on the web.

I never sleep and I still can't justify staying up all night to watch these shows live

Up until last month almost exclusively on my phone

I though Aztec Warfare was good, but is being insanely overrated in some places. I agree with Meltzer's basic point that the overall presentation and pinfall stip made it distinct from the Rumble and also suited the style of wrestling they present vastly better than a traditional battle royal would. I also thought it was generally a good match and they protected and presented everyone well with the possible exception of Pentagon Jr. who just felt like he was sort of there. On the other hand if you aren't a regular follower of the promotion, and you are expecting some outstanding match I think you are likely to be disappointed. Also not surprisingly I disagree almost entirely with El-P about this weeks show which I thoroughly enjoyed, even granting certain quirks and annoyances here and there. I like Brian Cage and think he fits great on the roster (I hope they build to a match with him and Big Ryck), and also thought the way they used him in the opener was outstanding to the point where I'm not particularly sure what could be criticized about it unless one is just universally opposed to obvious roid heads getting pushes. The main event is being wildly overrated some places, but this is a promotion that largely functions as the place where flashy guys do a lot of stuff in fast paced matches. To that end I thought it was effective.

Hmm, I thought about Dragon Gate, they have the finances and the exposure, but the stars? Surely not? I don't even like Dragon Gate, but it's hard to argue for anyone other than DDT ahead of them if you we are looking at the traditional business metrics. They are a faction based promotion, so the way "star power" gets measured in that context is probably different from the way we would measure it with most promotions. That said the ultimate test of star power is whether or not people want to see them - I love Akiyama, but AJPW is struggling (to put it mildly). CIMA and the gang aren't.

As far as quality goes and not business (what I was referring to with my first post), AJPW is a good in ring promotion. I would actually put their absolute best stuff against the absolute best stuff of NJPW, but their roster isn't as deep. On the other hand I do think they have a good variety of performers there. Akiyama is still a great wrestler, Akebono is a very solid big man, Miyahara is one of the best young stars in Japan, I love the vets like Omori, Nishimura and Fuchi and guys like Suwama, Doering and even Shiozaki have made real strides over the last eighteen months or so. Wrestle-1 shows are complete clusterfucks, that can be perversely entertaining, but are generally not good. NOAH is a soulless promotion at this point. I personally think Marufuji is god awful, among the worst wrestlers I've ever seen, though Ogawa (my favorite guy in NOAH) did carry him to a very good match at the end of last year. But it's not really Marufuji's fault. The promotion just lacks anything that grabs you. Even the guys they have who I like - Kenou, Ogawa, Sabre Jr., et. - rarely have spirited dance partners and even when they do the matches still feel flat. I wouldn't call NOAH bad, and I'm hoping the Suzuki-Gun Invasion can lead to some of their best shows in years, but they are a very flat promotion. DDT is a promotion I'm slowly starting to like, largely because their ace Harashima is the best ace in wrestling. Don't get me wrong, the guy is heavily flawed as a worker, but the way the promotion books him and the way he presents himself is a real throwback. He's someone who's matches I always enjoy watching even when I think they are sort of bad in parts. That's an impressive trait to have.

DragonGate is the number 2. DDT is number 3.

Unfortunately I feel that way about pretty much all US commentary now

Rollins as a heel is maybe the most polarizing wrestler around today. For every person who thinks he's great there is one (myself included) who thinks he is otherworldly awful in this role.

Who is being passive aggressive?

Best thing about Dave's recent NJPW coverage is that he kinda shit on the 1/5 show I really liked.

With me, I have enough podcast. Don't care about news. So what does that leave? All I am missing out, in my world, is awards voting and hall of fame issue. I see lots of value, but it's not where I am as a fan right now. Audio and historical pieces are the main reason I sub.

I just resubscribed. No regrets, but I also know what I'm getting with his NJPW coverage

Heard Dave ruled him ineligible, so I went with real rookies

My final ballot: Lou Thesz/Ric Flair Award (Wrestler of the Year) 1. Shinsuke Nakamura 2. Rush 3. AJ Styles Most Outstanding Wrestler 1. Cavernario 2. Timothy Thatcher 3. Hechicero Best Box Office Draw 1. Atlantis 2. Ultimo Guerrero 3. Shinsuke Nakamura Feud of the Year 1. Rush v. Negro Casas 2. Rusev v. Jack Swagger 3. Briscoes v. Matt Hardy Tag Team of the Year 1. The Briscoes 2. The Usos 3. The Twin Towers (Kohei Sato/Shuji Ishikawa) Most Improved 1. Rusev 2. Caleb Konley 3. Erick Rowan Best on Interviews 1. Stephanie McMahon 2. Jay Briscoe 3. Paul Heyman Most Charismatic 1. Negro Casas 2. Rush 3. Shinsuke Nakamura Best Technical Wrestler 1. Timothy Thatcher 2. Drew Gulak 3. Virus Bruiser Brody Memorial Award (Best Brawler) 1. Rush 2. Pentagon Jr. 3. Kongo Kong Best Flying Wrestler 1. Titan 2. Dragon Lee 3. Aerostar Most Overrated 1. Kane 2. Brock Lesnar 3. Yujiro Takahashi Most Underrated 1. Tomoaki Honma 2. Sami Callihan 3. Titus O'Neil Promotion of the Year 1. CMLL 2. NJPW 3. ROH Best Weekly Television Show 1. Ring of Honor 2. CMLL 3. NXT Match of the Year 1. Biff Busick v. Drew Gulak - CZW 4/27 2. Ultimo Guerrero v. Atlantis - CMLL 9/19 3. Jun Akiyama v. Takao Omori - AJPW 6/15 Rookie of the Year 1. Dragon Lee II 2. Cachorro 3. Australian Suicide Best Non-Wrestler 1. Stephanie McMahon 2. Zeb Colter 3. Lana Best Television Announcer Abstain Worst Television Announcer 1. Nick Nitrus 2. JBL 3. Taz Best Major Show 1. G1 Night Seven 2. CMLL Anniversary Show 3. G1 Night Four "CATEGORY B" AWARDS. PICK ONE IN EACH CATEGORY. WINNER CHOSEN ON THE BASIS OF FIRST PLACE VOTES. 1. WORST MAJOR SHOW OF THE YEAR WWE Battleground = 7/20/14 2. BEST WRESTLING MANEUVER Cavernario's splash to the floor 3. MOST DISGUSTING PROMOTIONAL TACTIC WWE bait and switch on Ambrose vs. Rollins at Battleground 4. WORST TELEVISION SHOW TNA Impact 5. WORST MATCH OF THE YEAR Ken Anderson V. Samuel Shaw - I Quit Match 6. WORST FEUD OF THE YEAR John Cena v. Bray Wyatt 7. WORST PROMOTION TNA 8. BEST BOOKER Ryan Ward 9. PROMOTER OF THE YEAR Drew Delight 10. BEST GIMMICK Rusev w/Lana 11. WORST GIMMICK Kurt Angle as TNA GM/Sexual Deviant 12. BEST WRESTLING BOOK Bluegrass Brawlers 13. BEST PRO WRESTLING DVD abstain