Childs
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Yes.
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Yes, agreed.
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How is creating a system to organize your thoughts about wrestling more inherently silly than watching wrestling period?
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I don't agree with this. I will give him extra credit for the fact his style fit so well in UWFI and allowed him to have a main event run there. Not a lot of U.S. workers could have pulled that off. It's not versatility in the traditional sense, but it is a type of versatility.
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Parv, are you open to disagreeing with your system? Or will any internal debate be confined to your grading decisions for each wrestler?
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Kasteel was a big, strong guy (think he either came from or went into bodybuilding), a little awkward but became a decent fighter. His '99 match with Tamura was pretty good. Sousserov was one of the armada of Russians who came in after Han. He seemed like a really gifted athlete but was never featured as prominently as some of the others.
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I do think it's a shame Taker got hurt early in the Mania match. I'm not sure if that was inevitable or just unlucky. But he did show in the rematches this year that he could still work effectively with Brock. I was frankly stunned how good he looked at Summerslam, because I thought he was awful in the Bray match.
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I think I could easily take my list out to 150 or 200 and still care about the distinctions between the guys. I guess I'll put a little more thought into the top of my ballot because those votes have more impact on the ultimate results. But I certainly agree 75-100 won't be an afterthought and will be populated entirely by wrestlers I love and/or respect greatly.
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The fear with Rock-HHH is they would give it too much time, both in the build and on the show itself.
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I agree they could get away with doing it as just huge star vs. huge star and that would be fine for the majority of fans. I just don't want to see the match and would be disappointed if that's the main event.
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You're kidding--Jumbo was like 6-foot-4 and Fuchi was a cruiserweight. They worked completely differently. Jumbo shouted "Oh!" a lot. -
I still think you're trying to hammer Vader into someone else's hole. He didn't want to work as an immovable object, and he went on to have a great series with Sting--best of Sting's career and one of the best in WCW history--working the way he worked. I know this is the eternal debate with Vader, and you're certainly not alone in your opinion. But if your argument is that Vader bumping around in a match like this took steam out of his later singles feud with Sting, that's not borne out by reality.
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I don't get the allure of Rock vs. Brock. Rock sure didn't look great in the Cena matches, and with all the movie stuff going on, is he going to take the kind of ass kicking required for a major Brock match? I know they've been holding on to that one for a big show, but it just feels like something that sounds better on paper. I will be disappointed if they don't run Brock-Reigns II. Still strikes me as the best potential mix of story, spectacle and match.
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His match with Hashimoto from 2/19/95 was quite good.
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Snuka might be the worst wrestler who's remembered as a great wrestler by casual fans. But I'm not sure I have a great grip on him. I imagine his Mid-Atlantic run might have been his best and of course, it's not well-documented.
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Jumbo, Funaki, Juventud Guerrera, Dynamite Kid, Sean Waltman, Curt Henning.
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Agreed but they did put the rocket on him fairly quickly as '92 went on. I think they realized he was something special compared to good hands such as Nakano and Miyato ... even compared to Anjoh, who was a hell of a wrestler in his own right. As for the earlier question about Kasteel, Sousserov and Klementiev, were you asking if his matches against them were shoots? Or just about them in general? Kasteel was a Dutch shoot fighter, but I'm pretty sure their '99 match was a work. I assume Sousserov and Klementiev matches were worked.
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I think I had the '99 match slotted as a shoot because Tabe referred to it as such in his listings. I went back and watched it, and there were elements that felt like a shoot. Overeem dislodged one of Tamura's teeth with a kick, and he tapped almost instantly to an armbar. On the other hand, some of the grappling felt more cooperative. Anyhow, I trust Tim's judgment. Assuming it was a work, it wasn't a particularly notable match for Tamura's resume.
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You're asking Vader to be a different kind of wrestler than he actually was. He stood out from the monsters of the past because he could create so much movement at his size and still come off as a killer. Trying to make him '87 Andre would have wasted a lot of what made him special.
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My problem with Miz is that I just don't want to see him wrestle in main events. Lawler was an exception, but that was because of how invested I was in Lawler. Though Miz fit that feud, he was fairly incidental to my interest in it. I agree he has value as a performer, but for me, it would be more as a midcard heel or as the aforementioned Michael Hayes-style mouthpiece for a faction.
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I'm not a Bret fan but you're selling his case short if you don't include those matches. His match with Taker from the England ppv in '97 was Taker's first great match. The Diesel matches were probably Nash's best singles outings, along with the one HBK match. And the 1-2-3 Kid match was a longtime option for best Raw match ever. If the point of the rating is to measure notable work against a range of opponents, I don't see how you ignore those. Hell, I might throw in Hakushi as well.
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On the Fujiwara question, it's not just the performances. His greatest matches--Sayama, Yamazaki, Choshu, Inoki, Takada, Maeda--were classics. He also delivered a bunch of entertaining, elevating performances against lesser opponents. But for those who love him, I'm pretty sure the consensus is he was both a great match and great performance guy. I need the best of the best to be both.
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You should check out his '80s stuff too. He was good from the start. He's in six or seven matches on the DVDVR set.
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Not really an angle in the American sense. Tenryu walked out on Hiroshi Wajima during a tag match and from there on, he was the chief rival of Jumbo and Co.
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Well, you have other people in the thread saying the Garvin title win was one of the greatest Crockett matches of all time, so it will be interesting to see where OJ falls on that one.