Childs

You've seen the Ray Mendoza match, right? That's one of the only others I can think of from the late '70s. But the Go series was the definite highlight. Would you agree Fujinami was a great worker by about '78?

I'm enjoying this thread as yet another reminder of how awesome Tamura was. It's inspired me to watch old UWF II shows from the treadmill the last few mornings. Would that they could have gone on for 10 years with that roster ... as long as they brought in Han and a few of his Russian buddies, that is.

Overeem is a shoot.

His U-Style stuff from '04 and '05 is also worthwhile. Oh and he missed all that time in '89-'90 because he was hurt in the Maeda match.

I wouldn't necessarily bother with the Misawa and Kobashi matches from 2000--not much to be learned there. His key matches from 2000 were the 7/23 tag (first big post-split AJPW main event), the 10/9 New Japan match with Sasaki, the 10/28 Triple Crown match with Tenryu and the 12/14 tag. I loved his 12/14/03 match with Ogawa. The 11/3/04 sprint with Shibata is cool, and the 2/16/05 match with Kojima is one of his most famous late-period matches. The '05 G-1 run, which includes that Fujinami match, is interesting.

That match was a ton of fun, but in my memory, it was Kawada's interaction with KENTA that really made it. In fact, Kawada's last little run with NOAH was a satisfying end note for his career.

I rewatched the '96 Hansen-Kobashi, expecting that I'd want to make a full-throated defense. But I have to confess I didn't enjoy it as much this time around. Hansen's performance was excellent. I liked the way he relied on a lot of cheap little counter shots early in the match, because he could no longer bull his way through Kobashi. And he made the second half of the match with his selling of the posted lariat arm. He really captured the wounded old bear vibe. But there was something off in Kobashi's performance. He sold being knocked silly by some of Hansen's early shots, which left him nowhere to go when Stan hit his real bombs down the stretch. And he was all over the place with his attack. I thought the basic premise of the match--that Hansen no longer had Kobashi outgunned--worked. So I don't agree they had no idea what they were doing. But the match needed a more commanding performance from Kobashi to go from good to great.

I popped this in after reading these two reviews and have to say, I'm puzzled as to what got you guys so excited. It was a fine little match with some nice touches from Miyato, like the slaps he threw at Takada's chest when he was stuck in the leg lock. His big flurry before the finish looked good and popped the crowd. And I liked the way both guys threw nasty kicks right after breaking holds. But as is often the case with Takada, the submission attempts weren't very dynamic, so even in an 11-minute match, there were dead periods. Don't get me wrong, the match was the right length and achieved what it was supposed to achieve. But great? On a card with Funaki-Nakano and Yamazaki-Fujiwara? Didn't see it.

John, did you find that Jumbo got a little stale in the early '80s (allowing for brilliant exceptions such as the Kerry match)?

Agreed. I'm not sure Miyato is a top 20 shoot stylist. You'd really have to love the style above all others to consider him for a top 100.

Right, I get what you're doing. I just feel like you reach a point where you have to say, Jumbo's resume of opponents was deep and varied, but I'm going to give Flair an extra nod in that category. And if that's really one of the most important factors for you, then maybe Flair is your guy after all.

My two cents--I'd include Kimura because the match was a significant accomplishment for Jumbo at that stage of his career and because it carried the big fight feel. Hamaguchi's more just a case of him having a very good match with a capable, lower ranked worker. But I wouldn't describe it as hugely "memorable" or important. I'd be more inclined to include Kobashi, who matched up with Jumbo in so many memorable tags and six-mans and also had a really good (albeit clipped for TV) singles match with him. It depends on your goal I suppose. For me, the distinction between 19 and 20 would be irrelevant. The point is Jumbo clearly established his ability to have great and memorable matches with a wide variety of workers over a long period of time.

For the Tenryu show, the real match to recommend is Fujiwara/Takayama vs. Murakami/Suzuki. As a Tenryu fan, I found the main event vs. Okada painful to watch, though it should be on there as a notable match.

Again, that's not the kind of thing they're going to put on the banner for what they hope to be their biggest event ever.

He isn't losing to Owens or Wyatt so I don't see big value in either of those. They can't waste Brock on a quasi-squash in Cowboys Stadium.

What do you do with Brock for Mania 32 if you don't put him with Reigns?

Roman should beat HHH at the Rumble, forcing the authority to call on Brock as the ultimate weapon. Then he should beat Brock at Mania, bringing a year's story full circle. Keep it simple. A battle of the generational aces match with Cena would always be out there for Summerslam or whatever.

Yeah, I'm willing to own that. I'm not voting for someone who never once made me think, "Ooh, he/she is a great wrestler." No amount of context could overcome that.

Regardless of where I rate Trish, it's great that you're doing the microscope thread.

[quote name="garretta" post="5714914" timestamp=" We all know JR loves to talk football, but was it really wise of him to bring up that Pillman was a second-team All-American when the first-teamer was Refrigerator Perry? By '92, the buzz had long since worn off of him and his career was just about to grind to a halt; in fact, he was seen as a joke by most serious football fans and experts. Fridge was a great college player, a first-round pick and one of the most famous stars of his era, so I don't think it was odd at all for Ross to make that association, especially given the size difference between Pillman and Fridge. Seemed like a fine way to highlight what an overachiever Pillman had been, which was no bullshit.

Do you expect to vote for Dusty, Kris? To me, he's the classic case where I'd feel compelled to include him if I was weighing promo ability and star power. But no way he makes it with my ballot focused on in-ring.

Kawada's 2000s letdown is overstated. He was a top candidate for best wrestler in the world in 2000 and damn good into 2005, despite working in a much less healthy promotion than the others. I'd put him below Kobashi for the 2000s and I'm not saying he was clearly better than the other two. But I don't think he was clearly worse either.

He's definitely in the mix for me, probably as a bottom 20 candidate. I guess I'd view his candidacy as similar to Onita's or maybe even Hogan's? From what I've seen, he kept it pretty basic in the ring but was tremendous at projecting his charisma onto a match and at building the intensity of feuds. Maybe a poor man's babyface Lawler as another comparison?

So will guys who've drawn you into the most frustrating conversations benefit?

I don't think he's immune. I'd be stunned if he finishes as high as he did 10 years ago, but he's helped by the fact that people still really liked his best stuff as they went through the NJ '80s set and the yearbooks.