Childs

It is an interesting comparison, because Gordy was revered as a generational talent within the industry, but his matches don't really live up to that, with a few exceptions. That said, I see him as no more than a mild disappointment, with a strong record as a tag worker and a key role in one of the great territorial feuds. Orton has largely squandered one of the great silver-platter careers in wrestling history. He's clearly gifted and has been treated as a top guy by the dominant company for close to two decades, but he has so little memorable work to show for it. He's steered into being boring as shit.

This feels more like I'm picking between styles than judging the wrestlers, who were both close to the best at what they did. So I voted for Rey, but I'm sure I would have picked Bret at other points in my fandom. I do think Rey's career is weightier at this point, so you'd have to rate Bret's peak significantly better to go with him.

Saint was overrated at one point because he was the bridge to classic British wrestling for a subset of American fans. He put up some brilliant performances but couldn't match the depth or consistency of his best peers. He probably won't make my list. Casas, despite ranking below the tippy-top tier of luchadores for me, is a lock for the upper half. So this was an easy one.

I assumed they meant in Brock's second run. But yeah, that Eddie match is glorious. He and Rey had a good one as well.

I'm not sure I've seen a Brad Armstrong performance that was better than very good. He's not someone I'd consider for a top 100. I'm not as high on Cesaro as some, but he's managed to remain interesting for 15 years despite Vince's lack of interest in him, and he has some great efforts on his docket. So this feels like a walkover.

I remember thinking that Balor match was much better than I expected going in (Balor has never done a thing for me), but I haven't watched it since the night it aired.

For all my Hansen love, I don't disagree with your point at all. Tenryu produced many, many more interesting moments against random opponents. I do believe he worked with a generous spirit and that it played a significant part in his longevity. These were my No. 1 and No. 3 wrestlers in 2016, so there's not a lot to separate them. I could see Tenryu turning the tables on Stan in 2026, but I'm not ready to rule.

For me, it's Greco, who's Volk Han-like in his hit percentage when you look at his whole career. He was a great athlete who actually used his athleticism to do interesting stuff every time he was in there. Meanwhile, I find Okada uninteresting even in a lot of his "great" matches. You can certainly make a volume case for him, and it's hard to deny his talent for laying out elaborate finishes that pop the crowd. But there's no question which guy I'd rather watch, even if it's an esoteric preference.

You guys have nailed the dynamic here; it's the natural vs. the self-made man. Owen was a beautiful wrestler to watch and had a few cool runs. I'd take the Mania match with Bret over any Punk match. He popped off some random gems against guys like Vader and Shamrock and had the fun tag team with Yokozuna. But I can't say he had a great career. I do think Punk squeezed more production out of his lesser tools, crazy as that seems to say.

I feel like in our little circle, the renewed interest in New Japan goes back farther than the resurgence of the modern product. All Japan was regarded as the king coming off the '90s run with NOAH as an extension of that. But I saw the tide shift even with the two DVDVR sets we did, where the NJPW one seemed to generate more interest for a lot of people because of the variety. That flowed naturally into a desire to take fresh looks at '90s NJPW, which had been so much less acclaimed. I'm not dismissing the impact of NJPW's recent pre-eminence for a lot of fans. That's an interesting theory; I have to remind myself that for a lot of people, the '90s are ancient history.

I voted for Brock. Buzz is a guy who's usually struck me as awesome in theory, disappointing in practice. He was this legit lunatic with freaky athleticism for his body type, but aside from a few stellar matches in Mid-South and Georgia, I don't see a ton of meat to his career. He was never as good as Brock was in his first run, and though I don't want to get into another debate with Matt about Brock's later run, his best matches from that stretch feel more special to me than Buzz's greatest hits.

A slight positive for me actually. I liked him dropping his counter-fu bullshit after the awful series with Styles and embracing his bloated faux rock stardom. It seems things have gone off the rails lately in AEW, but he had a solid few years there.

I just remember my instinctive distaste when you asked me if I voted for Jericho during our overnight marathon GWE pod. I would never have that reaction to Barry Windham.

I understand your point, especially as it pertains to Lucha, but it's not practical to ask voters to develop deep understandings of hundreds of candidates. Even those who've watched a shit ton of wrestling over the last 20-30 years have to pick their spots. "Show me a list of matches" is an imperfect approach and should not be the endpoint of a discussion, but if you view it as a jumping-off point, it's still valuable for people who are coming fresh to a candidate. I appreciate OJ's approach to Lucha recs, which has always been to include the trios leading up to the title or apuestas match.

That's from 2002, right?

Why the hell is everyone getting so touchy? Jetlag is an excellent, constructive poster of long standing who referred to Dump as the "most effective crazy sadistic heel ever" in this very thread. There's nothing sinister about suggesting we look at the entire career of a wrestler Grimmas views as a top 25 shoe-in.

I do think there's more room to deepen the case for Hash than there is for Jumbo, who's been picked over to an extraordinary degree on this forum and in other projects. We're still finding consensus on overlooked gems from '90s NJPW (with the '98 Hash-Fujinami as a prime example), and early Zero-One remains undiscovered country for a lot of folks. But I also wonder if we're hitting the point where it's hard to push the discourse forward on a lot of these GWE stalwarts. I mean, I voted for Hash, because at this point in my fandom, he strikes close to the heart of why I still watch this shit. He stirs something in me. But that's not very good fodder for debate.

Ditto. I've never vibed with Casas as an elite worker, while Tamura might be the best ever at a style I love. So it's an easy call for me.

I'm right there with you. Had Hash at 10 in 2016, and he isn't budging. When I need to give a little spark to my wrestling jones, he's the guy I watch. His combination of spectacle (contender for best entrance music and gear of all time) and no-bullshit fire is ageless. There's a moment in every good Hash match when he ups the ante on his opponent and that "oh shit" feeling settles over the building. I was watching that 6/5/98 match against Fujinami recently, and Fujinami lured him into a little trap where he snared Hash's leg for a second. But that just pissed Hash off, and it was like, "Congrats, old man. You caught your grizzly. Now, what're you going to do?" Love that shit.

Yes, to our detriment.

I could see Buddy taking a bit of a tumble in the overall ranking; he had a lot of momentum going into 2016 with people giving fresh looks to the Portland and AWA footage. I hope that's not the case, because he was magnificent. He might be a one of one (I guess Lawler is his chief rival) in terms of keeping territorial TV entertaining week after week.

I've read OJ's Thesz thread and watched the most pimped matches (which are great). But I don't have a feel for how complete a picture we have of Thesz the worker. I'd be interested in hearing from OJ or anyone else on that particular point. If there are big gaps in our ability to assess him, what are they?

This 100%. People remember preening, stooging, cartoon bumping Flair, but he always had a core of steel when truly challenged.

Rey cranked out a vintage performance in that Backlash tag for anyone wondering if he could still go at the highest level. He obviously doesn't do it every week now, but his crispness and timing at age 46 are quite something. I had him in the teens in 2016, and he certainly isn't going any lower than that in 2026.

In 2016, we talked a lot about how Vader brought a different kind of versatility. He didn't adapt hugely as he jumped from one promotion or opponent to another, but you could build immensely entertaining stuff around him in any environment. That's still how I view him. He's a highly rewatchable action movie, and I'd rather spend a random evening with him than with most of those who'll beat him on the list.