Childs

I mean, there might be a 20th century plumber who did his job better than Teddy Roosevelt, but I'm still not naming an elementary school after the plumber.

This is one of the few names on the list where I just don't see a case at all. I mean, I like him and think he was a badass, but where's the greatness?

Ohtani's a tough one, because even his run as an elite jr. heavy was pretty short for a GOAT conversation. His SC placement looks even nuttier now. But God he was good at his best. I'd say his rivalry with Liger produced the best cruiser series in history, and that was just as much Ohtani as Liger. I'll probably end up listing him.

I wouldn't say most of those guys had their best matches with Punk, but they did have great matches with him, and his greatest hits list will be enough to make me consider him. I give him credit for being a guy who put thought into making his programs and big matches great, when he was invested in them. He wasn't a great physical talent, and I'm not sure a lot of his indy work helps him in this company. I'm not going to dismiss him though.

He's waaay below Vader and Hansen. I'm not sure he'll make my ballot, which would've been unthinkable to me five years ago. He was a great physical talent and a great asset in World Class, because he brought a more badass air to the Freebirds. But I agree with Loss that he was often really boring in All Japan and WCW. For a long time, the idea of Doc being better than him would've been anathema to most hardcore fans. But Gordy never touched the kind of singles run Doc put together in '94.

Did Vince win something in the WON awards this year? He was easily the best heel in wrestling. I loved him dancing around Mick at the end, in a spiteful callback to them dancing together a few weeks earlier. I also loved the line about him only keeping Austin because of the gobs of money, which doubled as a character moment and a good plot explanation.

I think I might've liked the Wolfpac so much because of the song. The Sting thing was pretty stupid, especially with him suddenly grinning like an idiot at the prospect of hanging with the cool kids. And of course, they had to include a mini-swerve. I mean, who the fuck would seriously believe he'd join Hogan? Although Loss is right that joining Nash and Savage wasn't much better. If the character had any integrity, he'd have told both sides to piss off.

This struck me as an example of the All Japan guys pissing away a good first half by going overboard with the finishing stretch. The legwork on Taue was good, but he didn't sell it much, other than by staying out of the match for a few minutes. Then Kobashi had to do his Kobashi thing at the end, kicking out of everything but a gunshot to the head. And I didn't really get why they put the focus on Kobashi vs. Taue with the Kawada-Kobashi TC match a week away. There was some great stuff in this, as you'd expect with these guys. But honestly, I lost my patience with it.

An excellent match, but I don't think I found it quite as stirring as Loss or Chad did. Wagner delivered an amazing offensive performance, murdering Kanemoto in every way imaginable. And I enjoyed all the jockeying on the outside between Team Liger and Team Kanemoto/Ohtani. But Wagner was so dominant that it almost seemed out of scale when he missed a dive and Kanemoto beat him with a quick burst of moves. The crowd loved Koji's resilience, and his comeback teases were OK. But I don't know; this felt more like a really memorable performance from one guy than a true classic.

Giant Baba vs. Billy Robinson 7/24/76 vs. Hansen 2/4/82 w. Kimura vs. Hansen/Tenryu 11/29/89 Jack Brisco vs. Inoki 8/5/71 vs. Jumbo 8/28/76 Brisco Bros. vs. Murdoch/Adonis 12/28/84 Dick Murdoch vs. Jumbo 3/5/80 vs. Butch Reed 9/22/85 vs. Inoki 6/19/86 Dynamite Kansai w. Ozaki vs. Toyota/Yamada 4/11/93 vs. Aja Kong 8/25/93 vs. Aja Kong 11/20/94 Yoshiaki Yatsu w. Jumbo vs. Hansen/Tenryu 12/6/89 vs. Tenryu 10/29/91 vs. Fujiwara 8/5/94 MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana 9/23//83 w. Satanico/Espectro vs. Sangre Chicana/Mocho Cota/La Fiera 9/30/83 vs. Sangre Chicana 9/21/84

Billy Robinson vs. Inoki 12/11/75 vs. Baba 7/24/76 vs. Bockwinkel 12/11/80 Curt Henning vs. Bockwinkel 11/21/86 vs. Lawler 7/16/88 vs. Bret Hart 8/26/91 Negro Navarro w. Texano/Signo vs. Tiger Mask/Hamada/Hoshino 1/14/83 w. El Signo/Black Power vs. El Texano/Silver King/Gran Hamada 10/17/92 w. Traumas vs. Black Terry/Dr. Cerebro/Cerebro Negro 4/16/09 Masa Saito vs. Kengo Kimura 6/10/87 w. Choshu vs. Super Machine/Takano 3/16/89 vs. Larry Zybysko 2/10/90 Owen Hart vs. Bret 3/20/94 vs. Vader 9/20/97 vs. Shamrock 7/26/98

I agree people get hypocritical with that line of reasoning, and I include myself in that. But I'll say that for GOAT, I won't vote for wrestlers who succeeded doing what they intended and satisfied the audience but pursued an aesthetic I dislike. So for example, no Manami Toyota despite how remarkable a performer she was in some ways. If I dread watching you, you're not making my list.

That's a weird criticism of the Honaga series, which was a total styles clash and wrestled that way. Honaga brought more basic offense than most top juniors but acted like a classic American heel. And Liger's aggression ramped up as he got more and more pissed at Honaga's antics. Those weren't spotfests at all.

Naoki Sano vs. Jushin Liger 1/31/90 vs. Minoru Suzuki 7/26/91 vs. Kiyoshi Tamura 5/6/94 Minoru Suzuki vs. Naoki Sano 7/26/91 vs. Kenta Kobashi 1/8/05 vs. Keiji Muto 7/1/07 Akira Maeda vs. Fujiwara 2/9/90 vs. Funaki 10/25/90 vs. Yammamoto 7/20/98 Yuki Ishikawa vs. Greco 4/24/98 vs. Ikeda 5/27/98 vs. Murakami 11/26/00 Daisuke Ikeda w. Greco vs. Ishikawa/Otsuka 4/19/98 vs. Ishikawa 5/27/98 vs. Tamon Honda 9/1/01 Alexander Otsuka vs. Ishikawa 1/20/98 vs. Ishikawa 9/11/05 w. Ishikawa, Sawa vs. Ikeda/Usuda/Super Tiger II 7/26/08 Pirata Morgan vs. El Faraon 11/16/90 w. MS1, Satanico vs. Los Brazos 11/22/91 vs. El Satanico 11/26/93 Steve Grey vs. Clive Myers 12/6/77 vs. Johnny Saint 1/28/80 vs. Jackie Turpin 8/11/82 Marty Jones vs. Mark Rocco 7/26/78 vs. Tony St. Clair 9/26/78 vs. Finlay 5/5/82

Top 30 seems about right -- I'll probably revisit the '05-'06 stuff to see how I value that. I know some consider the ROH title run his best on the indies, but I thought he took a pronounced step forward in '07, when he streamlined his work a bit. The way he thrived in WWE against steep odds is certainly a strong mark in his favor.

Fuchi was done a disservice by AJPW's total lack of emphasis on jr. heavyweight wrestling, because we don't have a good record of his singles work. There are some very good matches, but not a ton of matches period. On the other hand, we know he was an all-time great trios worker. The early '90s stuff, when he was Kobashi's chief torturer, is the best known. But there's a trios from '89 I love where he just went totally nuts defending Baba against Team Tenryu. It was like this beautiful manifestation of a company man's passion. He was just an expressive guy in general and also a solid mat worker. I imagine Fuchi will find a place on the lower end of my list, even if his singles resume is slight in this company.

Then you might as well just say pro wrestling is the dumbest shit ever and move on to a different hobby. People have different lines when it comes to 'fake wrestling crap' and what will break their ability to enjoy the hobby when it goes too far. I might as well say if you don't like Chuck Taylor's invisible hand grenade, you might as well find a new hobby if we take your argument to an extreme position. I personally need there to be an actual something there to buy in. I'm pretty sure I saw Heenan work a match with the Ultimate Warrior based around hiding a tongue depressor and that was enough for me. Not really making that argument, just throwing a little snark at Nintendo Logic, who enjoys stirring the pot.

Well yeah, you might be in trouble, because the finishing stretches only got longer from there.

Portland too. Watch his matches with Buddy Rose. He also did some very good work in Japan. I don't think Martel would've made my top 100 five years ago. Now, he's a mortal lock. Everything he did looked good.

Yeah, Liger is one of those rare guys who was an excellent young worker, a sublime peak worker and then a very good old worker. And he was a bit different in each of those capacities. It's cool that he genuinely got to work as an ace, even though he wrestled lower on the card. He might have lost a little too readily at times in his desire to create rivals. But he was so gifted and carried himself so well that he never lost any luster from the defeats. Liger-Ohtani might be the best juniors rivalry ever, and Liger-Sano was nearly as good. Had a huge bag of impressive offense, could build a whole match around selling, somehow managed to emote through his mask. I suppose he also deserves some points for getting over in the U.S. He's a top 10 contender and definite top 20 for me.

I agree completely. Instinctively, I want to love Eddy but when I really think about it, it's based on those two runs. He's been a notable disappointment from the '90s review. I now think Benoit was pretty clearly better, even though that's not an opinion I want to have.

Then you might as well just say pro wrestling is the dumbest shit ever and move on to a different hobby.

I love Loss' take on Vader, that he wasn't really versatile in what he did but what he did worked incredibly well in almost every setting. For some people, that means he couldn't work at the level of the very best. I just know I always, always want to watch the guy.

For me, Choshu vs. Fujinami is a great debate. Choshu brought that almost unparalleled ability to make everything feel important. Wherever he was seemed to be the eye of the storm in Japanese wrestling. Great tag wrestler, worked with an intensity that made his limited move set irrelevant. As I worked through every last bit of footage from '80s NJ and AJ, I was always excited when I saw his name in a match listing. Fujinami, on the other hand, brought brilliant skill. He was quick, strong, balanced, could go hard on the mat or fly, looked credible against anyone from an American territory guy to a luchadore to a heavyweight monster. He was arguably the best wrestler in the world as a junior heavy in 1980 and a contender again as a heavyweight ace in 1988. Also a great tag wrestler. Fujinami was great earlier. Choshu lasted longer in top form. And the bitch of it is the best series for both guys came against the other. I'll be changing my mind on that comparison until the day I have to vote.

Watch the Inoki matches to see him work a bit more technical style, all the Colon matches from Puerto Rico to see him build a feud and bump around for the local hero, the singles matches with the AJPW next generation--especially Kawada and Kobashi--to see him adapt to a higher work rate. You've seen the AWA stuff, right? He's my working No. 1--some of the nastiest offense ever and he didn't let it stagnate as he got older, historically great brawler who could also slow it down, attentive seller, projected his character into his work as well as anyone, created a huge body of great matches, adapted to different settings and vastly different main event opponents. Nobody has gotten me fired up to watch wrestling more often than Stan Hansen.