tomk

Outside of match with Rogeaus, how much Garvin brother footage is there?

Don't know if he is still there, but right at point I was leaving figurefourboard, there was a guy who posted as Celian Varini who claimed to have interviewed a bunch of the wrestlers and fans of French catch of the 50s/60s and seemed super knowledgeable.

Hey it actually was Hogan v a tag team champ and I could swear it was Tonga Kid and not King Tonga, or at least Tonga kid was signing autographs. If you were to ask which was the show where everything was over...the answer wouldn't be the WWF one. As an aside, while prowrestlingonly is a place where Luger gets more credit than most other places. My sense is that the Tully/Luger team is pretty universally praised. Surprised not on Jerry's list.

Cher is the only artist to have a number one single on a billboard chart in each of the last six decades. Ray Charles tried his hand at everything from jazz, blues, country, pop, and gospel and had a significant impact on all of them. There are also guys like James Brown and Ron Isley who have great range, variety, longevity and commercial relevance. Huh? I'm not sure how much footage we have of Fliar between 74-81. Flair dropped about 75% of his offense from when we first have complete footage in the 80s and 89. He drops about 75% of what's left between 89-91. And just keeps on streamlining. He goes from being a technical wrestler who when push comes to shove will rely on brawling and shortcuts, to a chicken shit brawler who when push comes to shove will rely on shortcuts, to a WWF style weak heel, to a guy who is all shortcuts and when push comes to shove has to rely on garbage.

Chavo was working as Kerwin White at point Eddie died. No way do you push him into title from that. One of the candidates for most underrated would be Lance Cade. He pretty much spent the entire decade in either developmentals or WWE syndicated shows and pretty consistently put out high end stuff that wouldn't look out of place on the main show. I want to say he had a blow off match with Chaz Taylor in Texas developmental; a match with Joey abbs and maybe one with former Mike Maverick in Memphis; there were points in HWA developmental where he was so commited to working a Barry Windham tribute gimmick (which is a ridiculous style to work if you're looking to work in the WWF) that it was distracting but had some strong matches there and in OVW; Cade and Jindrak have a series of tags opposite Lance Storm/Val Venis, Hurricane/Rosey and Dudleys as well as a bunch of singles on Heat;Cade and Murdoch have a series of matches on Heat they split up Cade gets a Heat singles push, they get back together and have another series of meatches on Heat, he's released has a couple Hustle matches and then passes away. It would be pretty easy to put it all together but noone is going to.

I'm not really sure if you are disagreeing with me or not at this point. Yes they did great ratings. I said that in first post in this thread. They continued to do great ratings in Zero-One. They also created a ton of water cooler talk. Lots and lots of water cooler talk. People enjoyed watching feud on TV and talking about it around the water cooler. The point Meltzer normally makes is that wrestling is a business and if water cooler talk and ratings don't lead to people paying to see matches, it doesn't matter. When the blow off to the "hot ratings feud" draws over ten thousand fewer people than the first match, the problem isn't just the dumb finish to the blow off. Things that generated less water cooler talk and less ratings but more people actually paid to see than paid for the second match let alone the final blow off of Ogawa v Hashimoto: #3 guy in All-Japan vs. a guy who wasn't considered a good NJ dome draw A guy who had just been knocked out in 30 seconds v Jun Akiyama at a point where NJ was a complete wreck: There's also the 30th anniversary show as well as the 03 Nagata v Takayama Dome show. But yeah, Hashimoto v Ogawa drew a lot of ratings and water cooler talk. Yes, smarks have been saying this about the WWWF/WWF/WWE formula for five decades. If the face beats up the heel in the first match and beats him up in the second, what is left to settle? Why would anyone go to blow-off, what is it blowing off? May not make sense to smarks but it is a formula that has consistently made money. Cena hit Lesnar with stairs, Lesnar is a "real athlete" who could easily claim "bullshit, I can take you apart with my bare hands, you needed to hide behind bullshit props and weapons". Does it make sense? Yes, but who cares if it does or doesn't when what matters is that it consistently makes money.

There really isn't anything to it. The information is out there and easy to get. The trick with 80's WWF tag teams is analyzing it in the context of a promotion where everything was over. Maan, I was going to WWF house shows in both the Cap/Us Arena in Landover as well as the Baltimore Arena in the 80s, and the idea that the WWF was a promotion where everything is over doesn't feel the least bit accurate. Vince may claim that all of his wrestler's where "WWF superstars" but that's not the way the shows were booked. I remember going to a show in Baltimore (about a month before the combined AWA/NWA fed tried to break into the market) where yes I was really enthusiastic about the work in the Scott Mcgee v Tiger Chung Lee match, but we may have been the only people enthusiastic about that match. For everyone else, Hogan was over and Jyd was over---the rest of the card was a good time to buy Hogan merch. I think one of the points from Krisz's "Vince v the World" thread was the WWF wasn't a fed where everything was over, people came to see Hogan. I think this is slightly overstating things, in that the WCW cruiserweight division was horribly booked. WWF tag division was somewhere between the WCW cruiser division and Jimmy Valiant v Paul Jones Army well booked midcard feud. The WWF tag titles regularly changed hands in Allentown, PA which is essentially a TV studio match ( while the IC or world title change would take place in MSG). Meanwhile JCP is headlining its shows with the Steamboat/Youngblood v Slaughter/Kernoodle feud.The Final Conflict card in Greensboro main evented by Steamboat/Youngblood v Slaughter/Kernoodle drew record attendance supposedly caused traffic jams and layed the inspiration for Starcade supercard. The difference between a title that changes hands in TV studio matches and one that changes hands as main event of a supercard is huge.

Clearly my attempt at light satire failed. I think part of the failure was due to the fact that I actually care about design and put some thought into comparing the design of two books. Yes of course it is fair to discuss someone's mic skills. It is fair to discuss someone's skits. Each of the yearbook sets have multiple skits and mic work pieces on them and there are threads discussing those things. Wrestling mic work is fascinating. Dean Rasmussen often talks about wrestling mic work as being the last place where you could listen to traditional Southern Oratory. In the US at least post microphone/post recorded sound/post radio/post television speaking is normally about the art of small intimate vocal gestures. We talk alot about the movement from the vocal styles of Al Jolson to the crooning of Bing Crosby, the movement from the speeches of William Jennings Bryant to the fireside chats of FDR. In the 80s at least , what we spoke of when we talk about good mic work is far closer to the Jolson/Bryant model than the Crosby/FDR one. Wrestling skits are fascinating. Johnny Valiant pimping Brutus Beefcake is like very little else on Saturday morning children's television: LOSS: There have been several threads asking if mic work is important when judging a wrestler, or if other things are overvalued when judging a wrestler---and it feels to me pretty contentless. If I wanted to discuss micwork, there is nothing to stop me from starting a thread on micwork. If you want to argue that the basketball sketch is a five star sketch, nothing preventing you from actually discussing the merits of that sketch vis vis the Brutus sketch, Jimmy Valiant declaring War or Dr Wagner kicking the cat out a window. But multiple threads whining that people are ignoring the importance of micwork and sketches, when you don't seem to have any interest in discussing mic work (what makes for good wrestling mic work) or sketches deserves mockery. I apologize if my mockery wasn't clever enough to get that point across.

Negro Casas is the wrestling name of Jose Casas Ruiz son of Pepe Casas. He is dark and a guy who was inspired by wrestler Negro Navarro. In general with pop culture, it isn't a good idea to do literal translations. Hulk Hogan's gimmick isn't that he's a giant traditional Navajo house.

It is Observer awards season and I am always bothered by the candidates that people talk about for the best wrestling book award. People rarely discuss the importance of cover art to wrestling books. Is wrestling book content overrated on the internet? The IWC seems to ignore how important advertising/ballyhoo is to books. Books are really not about actual content (in the end they all are essentially just letters and pictures on paper organized in different ways). This is especially obvious in the case of wrestling books which are filled with careless misspellings, odd grammar, haphazard organization, and self contradicting statements. A wrestling book's value should be understood to be truly less about the words used in them or how those words are organized. The wrestling books value is really about what it takes to get you to purchase them off the shelf (the covers). A good example of the IWC's myopia is that in the 2010 awards Mick Foley's "Countdown to Lockdown" got the observer wrestling book of the year award. It's cover design is just fucking awful, colors are obnoxious, photo is poorly developed and shoddy looking, and the shape of the book is dull. There is no way the casual customer would connect with it and want want to pick it up. OTOH, Kartinka Herbert's "Slam" cover is beautifully designed is larger and has a fucking elaborate die cut slip case. There is a whole long discussion to be had about die cuts and how a book cover with a hole in it is far more sophisticated than one that insists on the books closedness, not letting you peer into multiple layers. Might be worth us having separate discussion threads on back covers, book spine and binding, typography and paper stock as well. But I think those are topics that could be introduced later.

Actually wouldn't have made any crack. OTOH, reluctantly reading the HHH mediocrity thread ( the last thing I want to do is write about HHH) and If I wasn't avoiding writing in that thread, I would make the point that a black man won the presidency of the U.S. and most people are less invested in the ridculousness of thinking a white person is inferior to a non-white one and that HHH wears an Iron Cross because he likes heavy metal not the axis powers. and And I might have pointed that anarchristxxx has asked me not to "persecute" him for being a neo-nazi in 05/06 and I try to respect that but if you don't want to be reminded of your world view in 05/06, it might not be a good idea to keep bringing up threads that you found to be "ridiculous" in 05/06. But I'm not posting in that thread, and I don't think I would have neccesarily mocked anarchristxxx for thinking it was ridiculous that people would leave before Hogan. It was surprising.

Mascara Ano Dos Mil isn't Shawty Lo, he may not take care of the mamas of his over twenty kids.

Or: "Cien Caras got virtually no support among ring rats in Mexico, with the feeling he was always was a family man who didn't show interest in the rats." John Yes. All I did is change quote from "his peers" to "ring rats"...but it makes it easier to read between the lines.

I eyeballed it as over 10%. I know one of the guys who works as Slapshot from highschool and bars around DC, and through him chatted with folks at MCI center after show who estimated it as under 13% left. So between 10 and 13. I'm choosing to err on the low side. Yes, it was shocking to me too. I don't remember if it was 2008 Judgement Day or 2008 One Night Stand, but Meltzer mentioned in one of those how a large enough section of crowd left after JBL v Cena that the wWe had to adjust to hide it on camera. If it's Judgement Day that would be after opener. My sense is it would have to be over 15% for it to be noticeable on camera (although not as familiar with those arenas as I am with MCI center). Summerslam 05 it was way under 15%.

Meltzer: "But years later, in a similar situation–the first All Japan vs. New Japan singles main event, Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kensuke Sasaki, New Japan put the outsider over. In doing so, they got a sellout the second time as well. But after Sasaki went over in the rematch, Kawada was never anywhere close to the level of a draw for New Japan again." They didn’t put Kawada in a position to draw on a dome again for over 4 years. I guess if you’re not used, you aren’t drawing as much. But that seems like a dumb argument. Also worth pointing out that Meltzer still points to how great a ratings draw the Ogawa v Hash feud was and continued to be, and ignores the whole Russo/Bischoff huge ratings but poor box office nature of it. Honestly around 98 or so Meltzer became very useful if you want to know what sources in the biz thought was wrong in Japan, he was less useful if you wanted actual smart business analysis I like Jerry Lawler v Bam Bam, Bockwinkle and Von Erich too. Still I think part of the dynamic of what makes Lawler v Dundee and Lawler v Dutch work so well is relative size. Part of the dynamic of what made Kawada v Sasaki work (and revitalized Sasaki’s career) is that it was two bulked up Mike Graham sized guys. It was credited with being the draw on most of the shows it was on (less the ones in Europe but definitely in SW). But if you don’t like that example the WWWF/WWF/WWE is filled with match series where heel doesn’t “win” first one. I already used the Patera one, which followed the basic Bruno three match DQ,CO, cage series formula: where first match ends in DQ when Bruno loses his temper and let’s Italian out kicking opponent in nuts and beating heel up, second ends in countout when heel runs away and third ends with face decisive win in cage, texas death, etc. It may not be way other feds did things but WWWF/WWF/WWE made a ton of money using that formula. It’s essentially how the Taker v Austin series is worked as three match series with Austin never getting a win. The 98 King of the Ring Austin v Kane match is the first series where Austin really loses the first match with heel since the start of the Austin v Vince feud. Austin beat Vince and his charges in the first match of every series from Sep Raw where he flipped off Vince through to the June PPV, which is a ten month period that resulted in a ton of money. Wrestlemania 21: Batista beats HHH, Backlash a month later, Batista beats HHH, a month later Vengeance, Batista beats HHH in a cage. Cena made Lesnar look like an absolute monster in their first match and barely eked out a win, made Lesnar look stronger than Bruno’s opponent looks after getting kicked in the nuts in first match, stronger than Dude Love looked when Austin chairshotted Vince to get DQ in their first match. There was no reason not to run a rematch. Loss says This is way too many matches cutting a bunch out 1997 Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/97) 1998 Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/98) 1999 Naoya Ogawa vs Gary Goodridge (PRIDE 07/04/99) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie (PRIDE 11/21/99) 2000 Kazuyuki Fujita vs Mark Kerr (PRIDE 05/01/00) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Ken Shamrock (PRIDE 08/27/00) 2001 Tadao Yasuda vs Masaaki Satake (PRIDE 03/25/01) Yoshihiro Takayama vs Kazayuki Fujita (PRIDE 05/27/01) Yuji Nagata vs Mirko Cro Cop (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01) Antonio Inoki slaps everyone (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01) 2002 Yoshihiro Takayama vs Don Frye (PRIDE 21 06/23/02) Bob Sapp vs Antonio Nogueira (PRIDE 08/28/02) Not sure how many of the Sak v Gracie matches you need, maybe just one You do need one of the Sak v Silva matches and you need the k1 Nakamura v Ignashov (thats really only Nakamura MMA match you need) You also probably need an Ogawa loss from when Pride stopped including works. I think you maybe should have Enson Inoue v Nog from Pride 19. Inoue was a shoot guy who ended up in NJ and then Choshu promotions Riki Pro and Big Mouth Loud. He was a guy who was pretty open about being friends with the Yakuza which led to endless internet conspiracy posts blaming Yakuza for the booking of mma and new japan. You should probably also include Doc Death Steve Williams v Ignashov, to kind of get sense of how bad Japanese biz was that Williams needed that kind of payday. I’d also include Minoru Suzuki v El Solar from DEEP, and Giant Silva v Akebono K-1 to give a sense of how nutty the Japanese mma world was and how intertwined the pro and shoot world were in Japan.

I really like the idea that whenever Meltzer writes something absurd about lucha, his sources are ring rats.

A near fall is a red herring. Maybe a book’s narrator should tell you "this is a red herring" because then you'll better trust the narrator’s assessment of the characters. That would make for great fiction. Growing up I never knew that hooked leg was signal to ref that this was actual real fall, but I’ve seen him use the talking point during a neck bridging section of a Steamboat match and thinking “fuck this guy” this is major spot in match. He’s putting himself over at the expense of the match. (Again I think on some level WWWF/WWF always put more energy into merch than lots of other companies—so on some level if Monsoon’s job is to tell people stop watching this and go to merch table, he’s doing it well). Yes actual sports commentators criticize the stuff they’re watching. Lance Russell often points to holes in Lawler’s game (“famously slow starter”, " letting temper get better of him" etc.)Ron Jaworski says team will never win without a better passing game, Merril Hoge says you need a running game to win. They criticize and are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.”). Monsoon is always right. Monsoon/Levy team is easily my favorite Monsoon pairing/ Monsoon would often big time Ventura and Heenan ina way that he couldn't big time Levy, since Levy was a guy who's gimmick involved having no gravitas to start with.

Arn's matches are filled with comedy spots and bug eyed selling and pointing to his head to show how smart he is only to get knocked silly. Thats the gimmick he's a guy who's seself-definition is built around being a no-nonsense kind of guy constantly being forced into nonsense. -I can't stand Matt HArdy/Tanaka simultaneously DDT/ace crusher two guys move. And damnit it's ridiculous enough that Maeda will snapmare a guy but damn is his snapmare bad looking.

George South has a ring that he rents (nice ring although ropes sometimes squeek). Normally when you see South in the NorthEast it's because the fed rented his ring.

This is smart piece on difficulties of writing for Bugs Bunny: http://zvbxrpl.blogspot.com/2011/05/why-it...bugs-bunny.html

Nikita is a guy who could put a singles match together and work hot tag effectively around 92.

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...lucha&st=20 Called that one.

Was succesful program for increasing attendance. While it was a houseshow main event (where it did increase attendance), it was never put into a PPV main event position to effect buys. As a complete aside, (and not sure if live PPV attendance suggests anything about the home PPV audience) I was at Summerslam 2005 and about 11% of the audience got up and left after the Eddie v Rey match like it was the Bruno matchat MSG and everything after was the curfew limit match. It absolutely blew my mind since this was people not only leaving before the Orton/Undertaker match and hometown guy Batista but treating the Eddie v Rey as the main draw on a card that had biggest draw in wrestling ever in Hogan. Also seemed preposterous to me since, DC is not southwest. I included match but deliberately seperated it as , really Ogawa wasn't working the shooter (disrespectful monster) gimmick that he had in the later series. Once NJ invested the money in Ogawa they were going to need to find a way to make the investment back and package and market him, but first match is seperate from the series. I was listing only the Dome singles matches and I could see someone arguing that the tag was the draw for thr Jan 4th show.

At that point third biggest name in AJ behind Misawa and Kobashi---He was the number 3 guy, that AJ was left with number 3 guy on top doesn't change that the draw was #3 guy v Sasaki. And not sure what you mean by stopped drawing when KAwada started losing. It was a two Dome Show series, unless you are counting the 2005/06 matches as part of same feud. If we are doing that, then Lesnar won all the early matches in the Cena feud years ago. Cena barely eked out a win in a no dq match that made Lesnar look superstrong. It's a match that made Lesnar look like an unstoppable monster. Three match series with Patera never actually getting anything like a win. This is something that at one point the WWF knew how to do well. How many times did Eddy win in that Eddy v Rey series that reignited attendance? Cena won the first match and people were hot to see a rematch. Lesnar won the first match with HHH, does anyone want to see the rematch? It's not about who gets the win, it's about how the match is worked. I wrote last year about the Observer awards for feud of the year: Cena v Lesnar was this years version of Cena v Punk. It was a really great build to a match and a perfect match. The WWE did nothing to follow up on it. It would have been super easy for Lesnar to claim BS and demand a rematch. Super easy for him to run in on Cena matches and hit Cena with ring steps (or have his fight team of FL guys in singlets run in for him) untill Cena agrees to a FMW style ring in a lake or cage. Outside of maybe AJ v Vicky, I'm not sure if the WWE has any interest in booking main event rivalry or feuds anymore.