tomk

Is there a reason to still have a Raw recapper? Isn't there some sort of program that could aggregate tumblr giffs and twitter posts and be as effective?

Yes he won some matches with the double chickenwing and he beat Slaughter-Kernoodle with the Weaver lock, but most of Steamboat's spots, the arm drags, the superplex, the bridging out of suplex into pin, the double knees on bridged opponent exchange, the ccrossbody etc....were building toward back exposure. There was a time where signature moves weren't finishers, the Garvin Stomp wasn't a finisher it was a way to weaken opponent up for a finisher. We live in a different world than we once did. In this post Kobashi, post-Angle/HBK, post Dragon's Gate cooperative world Dick Murdoch v Steamboat would be said to have good focused body part work if the match went as follows" Steamboat goes for chickenwing only for Murdoch to escape and hit a brainbuster followed by a calf branding for two,,,they roll to floor where they exchange chops and punches and irish whip each other into the rails and ring steps only for Murdoch to take control and calf brand Steamboat into the ring post, steamboat now sells his neck which will be vulnerable to top rope brainbuster" There once was a different time, where wrestlers fought and struggled for holds, where they pushed and shoved in collar elbows trying to get control of their opponent, where Baba would fight off Jack Brisco's attempt to get a backbreaker for an entire fall, Brisco wouldn't work over the back to make backbreaker more effective, he would work over the opponent to weaken them or control them technically so much that they couldn't fight off the backbreaker, Murdoch would work an arm not because the brainbuster was a move that was applied to the arm but because if you had an arm you would use it to fight off the brainbuster. Body part work meant something different. It was a different time, not a simpler one just different.

Would you rank Dustin above Inoki? Would you rank him above Kakihara?

I've read some variety on this a bunch of times over the years and as an early user of "Dustin comparisons"it always seems odd to me. Some guy said HHH was a top ten of all time wrestler. Now, in theory I could write about how he is not as good as Terry Funk, and not as good as , etc, etc. and slowly fill out a top ten without him. But that seems pointless and uninteresting. When I argued that he wasn't as good as Dustin the point wasn't that Dustin was top ten guy. Point was that HHH's work didn't compare favorably to someone who wasn't received as a top ten guy at any point in time. If someone tells me that Hirai is a top ten Japanese worker, I'm not going to respond by showing how he compares poorly with Misawa, I'm going to start with Kakihara. That doesn't mean I think Kakihara is a top 100 worker. Kakihara isn't a GOAT candidate, he's a " a fine wrestler, nothing more". It's what makes him a useful comparison.

Yeah, this. The problem wasn't that Hashimoto lost to Ogawa, it's that he lost over and over again without getting his win back. Also, it needs to be pointed out that Rocky didn't face Ivan Drago until after he killed Apollo Creed. And in the previous film, he got destroyed by Clubber Lang before getting his win back in the rematch. Either the Drago route or the Lang route would have been fine. Instead, they went the Thunderlips route. It's not that he lost again and again, but the way he was depicted in the loss. Less people came for the reamtch than the first singles. Even less showed up for the third. Rocky wasn't a movie serial, it was one solid movie. No one left after Apollo Creed match to come back next week. Rocky wins at the end of the movie. Apollo Creed is essentially Terry Gibs as Slaughters tag partner getting eaten alive before Rocky comes in. There was no reason for them not to continue the program after the first match. They could have easily turned it into a three match program. People were far hotter to see a rematch than to see Lesnar stuck in a HHH series.

This is a really interesting comparison. I helped put together the 80s New Japan set and watching endless Inoki gave me a better understanding of what Shawn fans like in him. Most of the things that sane fans of Shawn (as distinguished from Alvarez type devotee) say about him apply to Inoki. Yes he is willing to do nothing on smaller matches (let opponent do all their stuff and then brush it off before hitting listless kick), but he delivers in the big matches,can create this semi-epic aura, is really good at babyface timing, connection with audience, selling gimmick match, working underdog v monster heel, good at the big picture stuff, creating cohesive whole, character work, etc. So in some senses very similar workers and watching alot of Inoki made me better understand the appeal of HBK. That said I think Inoki easily has longevity on Michaels, is more versatyle, has worked a wider variety of opponents, has a more well rounded offense(not just better as I could see someone thinking HBK's moonsault is better than Inoki's flying moves), is more giving, and has a deeper coonection with audience. Not sure if the comparison of shared opponents would do Michaels any favors. Not here nor there but I much prefered watching indy headlined by Inoki disciple Ishikawa then I did watching one headlined by HBK disciple Justin Credible. All that said, I don't think Inoki would make my top 100 workers of all time either. With all the Demolition talk here, where would people rank Eadie?

I think it might be worth comparing Bock's touring champ "ACTION" matches. In putting together the Mid-South set we got to watch a bunch of Bock touring champ "surviving" a challenge keeping it moving matches from Houston. There is about a 15 minute Brody match that felt like an hour which didn't make the set. I'm not a big fan of th Brody v Flair broadway, but Flair does a much better job of keeping the match going, the Bock v Brody match is a quarter of the length but feels like twice it. We did put the JYD and Dusty matches on the Mid-South set. Part of me wishes we had put on the Brody one, so people could see how much more JYD brings to the table. We also have a TV studio match between touring champ Bock and Mike Graham from Blanchard's fed, which I don't think is anywhere near as effective as either the Tv studio touring champ Flair v Graham or the Tv studio touring champ Dory v Graham matches we have. I like Bockwinkle alot, and not really the biggest fan of the touring champ survivor type matches (Bock is clearly a better touring champ for what Memphis demands than either Flair or Dory do...and that maybe should be weighed higher)...but it's simply not one that I think Bock is very good at.

The complaint of the match was that it was perfect except for the finish. Not having Lesnar dominate and then win was "burning money". History shows the opposite.

1) Inoki and Ogawa 1998 Riki Choshu had retirement series, his protege Sasaki was failing on top....Inoki retirement match v Don Frye sets a record drawing something like a $7 million gate. April 12, 1997- debuting Olympic silver medalist Naoya Ogawa TKO Shinya Hashimoto (9:25). This is pre-Ogawa working "shooter gimmick" although he is being positioned as future "hot" Hash rival Jan 4,1999 Tokyo Dome---Shinya Hashimoto NC Naoya Ogawa (now with one Pride "win") (6:58).Drawing 52,500 October 11, 1999 Tokyo Dome- NWA World Champ Naoya Ogawa (now 2-0 in Pride) TKO Shinya Hashimoto (13:10). Drawing 48,000 April 7, 2000 Tokyo Dome---Naoya Ogawa (now 3-0 in Pride) KO Shinya Hashimoto (15:09). Drawing a heavily papered 40,000 and well the non-Dome business crashed during this feud too. The Ogawa v New Japan feud was a super hot TV ratings feud but people weren't actually interested in paying to see it. Booking a guy as Ivan Drago promising to no sell and break top star Rocky and then having him actually no sell and break top star isn't something that people pay to see. This is obvious but kind of forgoten important point in world where idiots complain that the wrong guy won Lesnar v Cena and how it should have been booked more like Ogawa in NJ. Sheet writers supposedly "smart" to biz should be able to see lesson of 52,500--48,000---40,000 before they write about "burning money". I think the Don Frye v Inoki retirement match and the Ogawa v New Japan feud are kind of the most important stuff to understand this period. 2) Takayama- Team No Fear (Takayama/Omori) pushed to double tag titles in AJ in 1999. Team No Fear pushed to beat Misawa and Ogawa for NOah tag title in 01 Takayama is pushed to the finals of the NOAh title tournament (to crown first champion) losing to Misawa in April 01 May 01 Takayama( being ex-UWfi guy) dips toe into Pride. At this point he is a guy who has figured out how to be a super charismatic pro-wrestler and impresses the fans in main event loss to Fujita. Takayama looses two more times in Pride (0-3) including "fight of the year" opposite Frye before the 02 G1 tourney. 02 G1 tourney he is #1 outsider booked to finals before putting over #1 native Chono. He beats Yoshinari Ogawa for GHC title in 02 before losing to Misawa. Back in G1 in 03 where he is booked as #2 outsider (behind Akiyama); with semi-final of Akiyama beating Nagata, and Tenzan beating Takayama for a Tenzan v Akiyama final. I'm not sure if the question you're asking is "would Takayama have been pushed to GHC title and as #1 outsider in 02 G1 and, #2 outisder in 03 G1 without his 0-4 shoot record?" or " Would Takayama have drawn as much money/as big ratings, etc in those positions as he did?" I would say probably "yes" to the first and "no" to the second. If you wanted to, you could make an argument that the damage from the shoot matches shortened Takayama's career. 3) Fujita and Yasuda: guys pushed due to shoot wins Fujita: Fujita debuts in about 96 and is booked with "shooter" gimmick four yeas before he does any shoots. New Japan has a couple guys who they book with shooter gimmicks , "guys who can legit work shooters" and so you'll find posts by New Japan partisans back in 96 complaining when Fujita puts over Choshu or some other non-shooter gimmicked guy. He gets paired opposite legit amateur Nagata a bunch. But does not get pushed heavily untill after his shoot wins. He has to vacate the IWGP title after first win due to injuries sustained in an MMA match. Yasuda: Ex-sumo had been around NJ since early 90s floating around midcard, beat a k-1superstar in an MMA match and then was pushed more seriously in NJ winning a IWGP title. 4)Nagata and Nakamura: shoots make guys go ouch One of the cooler Japanese booking tricks is the seasoning trip abroad. Seasoning trip abroad allows booker to build a guys credibility up (move him up the ladder) without sacrificing other members of his roster. Maybe a wrestler actually does learn something working away from regular audience, can fail and experiment without those failures and experiments haunting him forever. Whatever? A guy can comeback from a seasoning trip abroad with some photos of success and a bigger body (cycling on steroids without fans seeing the growth) and immediately be placed higher on card. MMA matches aren't a trip to WCW or England. You can loose in front of your regular crowd and you can get badly hurt. It's unclear that the Japanese bookers understood this. Nagata- Yuji Nagata is a guy with amateur background who after stint in WCW was pushed as regular challenger to IWGP belt. Pushed as guy with legit amateur background surrounded by stable of guys with legit sports backgrounds. Like Fujita booked as guy credible opposite MMA outsiders. Nagata was booked in legit shoot match with Cro Cop in 2001. Nagata got knocked out in under a minute. Despite the loss he still is booked to win the IWGP title in 02. He holds the belt for over a year and is booked to hold the record for most succesfull title defenses. Still, Nagata never being as popular as Hashimoto is often blamed on the KO. Even without the Ko, I doubt he was gonna be the next Rock. Shinsuke Nakamura- Nakamura debuted in spring of 02 and quickly is booked (wins following) as "Super Rookie": tough charismatic blowjob babyface who sold from underneath and then could catch opponents in slick subs. For new generation of blowjob babyfaces he would be the KENTA (one with the tougher offense) to Tanahashi's Marafuji (guy with the more watered down lucharesu by way of Elix Skipper offense). He gets booked in three "MMA" matches before he wins the IWGP belt in 03. The three "MMA" matches are an Inoki-boom-baye show, a New Japan show, and a Jungle Fight ( promotion that Inoki has his hands in and which regularly features New Japan trainees, NJ trainers and stuff like Kakihara v Rocky Romero). Nakamura wins the IWGP belt in Dec of 03, completing the journey from super rookie to title. The generation of guys (Tenzan, Kojima, Nagata, Nakanishi) after the Three Muskateers really hasn't excited the NJ fans and NJ was going to go with a new generation. Nakamura is then booked for a New Years eve k1 MMA match where he looses and is beat up so badly that he works one defense on Jan 4 (still looking completely glassy eyed) and has to forfeit the belt due to injuries. The Nakamura "super-Rookie" story as well as the booking of the IWGP title were both fucked up by the decision to book him into an MMA match. 5)Keiji Mutoh and Kensuke Sasaki: Keiji Mutoh: 2001, Keiji Mutoh is a broken down shell of a wrestler. Ex-pro "Gracie Killer" Sakuraba gets TKOd by repeated knee strikes to the head in a Pride fight opposite Wanderei Silva. Mutoh reinvents himself as guy who wins with a knee strike. Kensuke Sasaki: Hey remember Sasaki, he was guy who wasn't working as maineventer before NJ decided to go push the Ogawa v Hashimoto feud. Turns out he's short enough to be credible opposite Kawada (the third most important guy in rival fed AJ).

The rolling suplexes as count along Hase giant swing comedy spot started during the series opposite Austin.

Huh? Cena would get booed less if he was working tighter. He has been booed opposite loose HBK, Angle, HHH, Edge, Punk and Jericho. On the other hand, He was cheered opposite JBL, Umaga, and Lesnar. Maybe it isn't him who needs to tighten up his moves, maybe he needs stiffer opponents.

The Foxsports episodes where Dusty builds up Hector Garza are worth rewatching: Hector Garza wins battle royal, I want to say ending with Garza v Kash Hector Garza v Aj Styles Hector Garza v Jarret Hector Garza v Hall

AWF Sabu-Candido is maybe 3 minutes and doesn't give you a sense of "what the fuckishness?" that you want from early Sabu. If you want proto Sabu (and probably historically significant enough that he should be there) the route to go would be FMW tags with Sheik (which are also pretty short or cliiped). Also the novelty of his USWA match with RVD might be worth inclusion. I haven't been a tape trader in years but it used to be really hard to get a hold of 90s Puerto Rico with the exception of Eddie Gilbert booked period in 94/95 (which is lots of him pushing Glen Jacobs and Tom Burton) and 91. For some reason a bunch of 91 was easily available including stuff that got commercial releases. WWC brought in a nice group of brawling wrestlers from the continental US that year ( Ronnie Garvin, Greg Valentine, Dick Murdoch, Dick Slater, Manny Fernandez, Texas Hangmen and the SST) which may have resulted in more tape trader interest (or maybe they just had more money for talent and putting out commercial tapes that year). Who knows? Stuff that I think would be worth going on a 91 set. -Dick Murdoch v Wahoo: It's Dick Murdoch and Wahoo running through their spots together -The Texas Hangmen v Invader/Bronco series: Hot tag series. -Murdoch/Slater v Invader/Colon-Hardliners v Invader/Colon -Abby v Carlos Colon (also the angle that sets it up where Abby attacks Colon in the shower...at one point guys getting attacked in shower in Puerto Rico was considered "tasteless" by continental Us tape traders). Two 50 year old men stabbing each other as they wander around a stadium. Really has the chaotic feel of two fifty year old men getting in a fight stabbing each other around a stadium. -Miguel Perrez Jr v Hurican Castillo Jr dog collar match. Nice contrast to last match as two athletic thirty year old guys working a grizzly brawl around a basketball court chained together by the neck. -Ronnie Garvin v Invader form the Anniversario show: Ronnie Garvin returns to Puerto Rico, and I can watch Garvin build a match around stretching and stiffing an opponent all day. No blood but it's Ronnie Garvin so this may in fact feel like the grizzliest of all these matches. About two years ago awesome Midsouth jobber Gustavo Mendoza started putting up his matches from Puerto Rico on youtube. I don't know if there is a way to put the tag title against the SuperMedics on to disc, but it is just a fun very basic tag construction. I think it would be earliest match and it's important with the Puerto Rican stuff to give a sense that this is style that isn't built on grizzly brawls so much as it is built on really old school simple construction where any minute things can go awry and all hell will break loose. -So this Puerto Rico talk reminds me "hey Victor Quinones and partners started W*ING in 91". I am not the guy to reccomend W*ING matches...and I have no idea who in 2012 is the go to guy to reccomend W*ING. But there probably should be at least one bizzaro W*ING match.

For the last couple of decades we have Farmer's data, which of course is imperfect: For the current HOF candidates In sep 12th observer Meltzer wrote: There is no explanation of how he came to the conclusions he does inorder to create second list. And I really don't buy his results Since I'm interested in the luchadors he also said: Since he's specifically addressing Atlantis here, I'd say he misses the degree to which the Wagner feud elevated both of them. This is something that's been forgotten in Us booking. Rivalry extends the life and increases the draw for both participants. But I also don't buy his general theory that Cien wasn't an actual draw. It would be worth trying to look at the actual matches that make Farmer's numbers.

This wasn't meant as a shot or smart alec remark. I legit thought if anyone could understand the long term appeal of Konnan and Vampiro it would be you. Also worth mentioning that Konnan and Vampiro were both guys who clearly were following UWFi and Pancrase closely....and kind of had the same misunderstandings/problems working that style that guys you like are accused of having.

Think of them as Yamazaki and Takada, charismatic young guys who seemed different with a ton of raw potential. Fans will overlook that they can't put a match togeter and gleam onto the potential rather than the reality. A guy can have a pretty decent career in wrestling based on audience nostalgia for that moment of potential.

I think this is always a really great place to start your lucha viewing. One of the big takeaways from this match is that as a rule there aren't as many momentum changes in lucha as you will find in other styles. Once you start watching trios matches and opening feeling out sections, it's easy to loose sense of that, but I think it's important to keep in mind. We are in the middle of March Madness and one of the things about basketball is its a game with a ton of super quick changes in possession (lots of changes in possession/lots of short possessions)that don't correspong to changes in momentuim. If you go into a basketball game (even into a one sided Globetrotters game), expecting football, baseball or soccer you might be tricked into thinking that there are more momentum swings happening than there actually are. Go into trios matches thinking about basketball not football.

Lee Benaka was a guest speaker for that class once.

For the most part I agree with Eric. That said was Baron Leone's actual gimmick "The Smiler"?

Cena was easily booked beneath HHH in 2005. The 2006 HHH v Cena match, Cena was booked beneath HHH and was still randomly for no purpose getting pedigreed on TV a month later. HHH used the Cena feud to start his own face DX run. DX were then booked stronger than Cena for the next year with the idea being at the end that HHH was going to win back the title at the next Mania. HHH gets injured again so HBK takes his place in a feud where HBK looses the Mania match to Cena but wins the series. On the road to HBK v Cena Mania, Cena does get to bleed opposite Umaga in a PPV which does feel like the beginning of the fed getting behind him. We know WWF was a promotion where only your top star gets to bleed in his PPV match (only one match per show was allowed blood when blood was allowed). Cena wasn't entitled to right to bleed till here. I don't know how much you can put into that since HHH isn't around and HBK was in the rumble which is a non-bleeding match. HBK and HHH both are injured and Cena does get a nice little run as top guy. From about May to October 2007 (when Cena is injured) is probablty first period where he's actually booked as an ace. I'm not really sure how invested the fed in at protecting him, booking him or presenting him as the ace at this point either. He wrestles Lashley at the Great American Bash, where Lashley earns a rep for being uppity because he wants to turn heel. The fed apparently thought it was more important to protect long term investment in face Lashley than have a heel opponent for Cena. Cena comes back from injury for the Royal Rumble and is booked lower on the card then HHH (when not in matches with HHH) on PPVs for about next 6 months. Loses to Batista in the main event of Summerslam. Then it's back to being booked below the HHH/Edge/Hardy series and then below HHH v Orton w/ legacy series. Around 2009, HHH did start taking a back seat but I still don't know if the WWE "presented, booked and protected [Cena] as the ace of the promotion" at that point. It was clear for a couple years that people only cared about Cena as the #1 star in promotion but don't think the WWE was any more invested in protecting him than they were in Orton or Batista. Maybe more invested than they were in Edge or Hardy. who the fuck knows? Still I'd say Cena's period as an ace would be May to October 2007, and April 2009-today. So a little over three years. During that period he has been pushed about as hard as Austin 96-98, not post Tyson Austin.

I don't know if he did. But Meltzer suggested that he might (that doing so would be in character for Vince).

Kato and Little Bobby Dean are Lord Littlebrook's kids.

Again I haven't read the Torch (which has the inside track on TNA gossip) in over a decade...but my sense is that TNa in most regards is run in an even more piddling half assed way than the WWE. The "two real examples" in WWE that were reported in the Observer were reported as though they were only notable in that lower ranked guys won fights with higher ranked guys...with the question being that Vince apparently has changed pushes/lost faith in guys when higher ranked guys lose fights.