tomk

Yes this. The LP was something invented originally to play classical pieces and soundtracks, eventually some guy in marketing realized "hey we can charge people more money if we use this LP format to compile pop singles with some filler that wouldn't sell as single". There was then a real brief period where some artists tried to experiment within the album format to make it more than a compilation of singles and stuff that wouldn't work as single. We'll call that period the LP period. It's a really brief period. After that people went back into concentrating more of their attention on songcraft for singles, and the real only people who cared about album formating were people who were working in a style that was derivative of/inspired by the LP period. Then of course the dance 12 inch came along and well the casette tape allowed for more music/between song skits/etc. The LP period is a blip in history of pop music. If you did a list of best radio dramas, most of them would come from the 40s or be highly derivative of radio dramas from the 40s. A list of best radio dramas wouldn't really tell you much about the quality of 20th century drama. Artists whose work is associated with the LP period will have higher rated LPS than folks who arent. Not sure why the artist with the most high star Albums means anything more than the artist with the highest rated 12 inch EPs, best Edison rolls, best cassette only releases, or best flexi-discs. The Beatles didn't release any highly ranked 12 inch eps or Edison rolls. The Album period is really a tiny period in the history of pop music, it's like using highest star rating for three way dances as metric for GOAT wrestler.

This is Dylan's spectacular cover of "It Must Be Santa".

If this is in response to my initial post, I didn't mean that to be race baiting. If you would rather I can rewrite that as: . The history of popular music world wide is huge.

Cher is the Jumbo Tsuruta of popular music constantly able to adjust her work to stay relevant as popular music styles change. She is the only artist to have a number one single on a billboard chart in each of the last six decades. If the metric we want to use is relevant output, than really no one is up at that level.

I'm not sure when you last read the original post that me and jdw were responding to. That was what we were responding to. Yes WWF had a larger roster. At one point WCW had over 100 people on their roster. If 95 of the people on that roster are booked as midcarders. It isn't a deep roster. When you go through guys who were maineventers in JCP and merely midcarders in WWF, it doesn't reinforce the argument that there was a "huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in JCP." It argues against your point. It suggests that JCP booked top heavy while WWF booked a main and semi-main and then dumped everyone else into pool of interchangeable midcarders. Acting somehow like the WWF midcard was booked as semi-mains really suggests you weren't watching or going to shows. Piper v Adonis isn't the semi-main, it is a midcard angle. If Steamboat v Savage is booked as workrate attraction equivalent to RNR v MX...than it isn't being booked as equivalent of JCP secondary title. It is being booked as less important than JCP books both it's secondary title and it's top tag title. And Bulldogs/Tito v Harts Foundation is booked even lower than that. It's almost as though in the WWE, there's a huge gulf between the main event and the rest of the card.

Super dissapointed that this was cut off from wrestling thread as the point I was making holds both places Not sure why you can only look to post Dylan music. I don't know anything about UK music pre-Joe Meek, but in the US we have a rich history of popular music on record, where you can find spectacular stuff going back to 1893. There is a giant history of recorded French popular music as well as Spanish recorded pop music. The amount of recorded Portugese pop music from Brazil alone is amazing. The idea that two English speaking 60s artists are all that's relevant to pop music history, comes off as willfully ignorant.

NJ juniors did pretty well on the DVDVR 500s at end of nineties, and OJ is right in that the Doc Wagner story is fascinating ( on some level we expect Jeff Farmer to go to work in Japan and come back with crisper execution and better understanding of how to put match together we don't expect him to come back learning how to project Rock style charisma and how to weave in shtick better). I think the thing that happened in terms of english language internet users attitudes toward NJ juniors at the end of the decade has alot to do with Japanese indies. I don't know if I can articulate this well at all. Part of the traditional pleasure of NJ juniors is its hybridity. I believe on some level that Mando Guerrero v Greg Valentine would be a style mismatch and might turn into a mess but I know that I will enjoy Fujinami vs. both. Fujinami stylistically has a mish mosh of different elements ( a lil of what Mando does, a little of what Valentine does, etc.) At point in late 90s that tape watching fans are invested in indies that are fully comitted stylistically, the appeal of mish mosh style lessens. It can come accross as watered down, not fully one thing or other. Flik mentions Naruse and Murahama. Naruse is a guy who was an ex-RINGS worker and ex-Battlearts worker. He has a lousy record with RINGS once they turned into a shoot. He came into NJ in 02 and won the belt, tags with El Samurai v Kikuchi/Kanemura. Takehiro Murahama is an ex-kickboxer with a winning record from when RINGS was a shoot, was super fun as worker for Osaka Pro lucharesu fed. I think he may have also been in the really bad UWfi restart tourney with Shinjuku Shark. Naruse is a guy I want to see in a worked shoot fed or some kind of Mach Junji Muga-ish fed. Murahama is a guy I want to see in lucharesu fed. Either of them in NJ as full time workers where they have to play down their strengths inorder to play up "well rounded" hybridity holds far less appeal. I still really dug NJ juiors at end of 90s begining of 00s, but I think the success of stylistically coherent indies in attracting tape watchers hurt Nj juniors appeal. At some point while eating at the great Turkish/Korean Barbque fusion restaurant, you're going to find yourself saying "This kimchee tabouli is great, but I just want a chicken shwarma"

Why? 1)Los Angeles does at some point in 88 became a site for Superstars tapings so there is even more jobber matches interspersed with TV angles, not sure if it is representative of standard WWF at that point. 2) HEck look at the mania cards between 89-95. There's a huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in WWF on their supercards. 3) The big change in terms of card structure in 88 wouldn't be WWF (well Savage title is change in that with Hogan they were more willing to do Hogan match + everyone else, while with Savage they normally did a #1 and #2 match + everyone else.), but with JCP. 88 JCP had a completely different cast of characters. The whole argument you were making about roster depth was about 86-87 JCP. Jimmy Valiant wasn't even in JCP in 88, neither was Wahoo, Powers of PAin are on the top feuding with Road Warriors and then leave for WWF, Luger is face feuding with Horsemen that now include Windham, Sting is being built uo super fast, Steve Williams moves from guy in midcard to guy in Wargames matches and then back down, Tully, Arn and Ron Garvin all leave for WWF by end of year, etc. The 88 midcard feud was Jimmy Garvin v Kevin Sullivan and I think that is less defined midcard feud than the Jimmy Valiant v Paul Jones. Valiant v Jones was about sidedraining guys down while Garvin v Sullivan was about moving guys up. 88 was a very different year for JCP. Even so the shows have more depth, less of a gulf between the main and underneath. Still the original argument was 86-87. Going "but what about 88?" isn't just moving goalposts, it's a whole new argument. But what about 89?

That's if you're too myopic to listen to non-white performers like Ray Charles or James Brown, or to listen to music from different eras like Bing Crosby or Louis Armstrong. The goal should be to expose yourself to a larger net of candidates from variety of cultures and eras.

Not to get sidedrained into discussion of Puerto Rico but this is what I wrote when folks were soliciting matches for 91 set: I think you can find alot of that on various webvideo sites (dailymotion, youtube, facebook video, etc.) I prefer Invader to Colon at this point and so mostly reccomended matches with him v outsider brawlers, but sure you can find Colon v same cast to compare to Valentine match.

It's worth looking at the cards that jdw psoted for Los Angeles and actually comparing them to the WWF cards in major market LA around same period These are not really deep cards at all. The first has a match with Andre opponents and alies where he's not actually in match and a match with Hogan opponent. Second has Hogan. Pretty much evrything else is Paul Jones Army level stuff and below.

The Finlay fakes an injury is a Finlay spot. My understanding is that at least in Uk he's credited with either inventing or popularizing the heel fakes an injury to trick face. When he first showed up as road agent in WWF, if you saw it in match it pretty much signaled that he had laid the match out...but he's so respected (and it works so easily) that pretty much everyone in WWE uses it now and its become a real predictable WWE standard spot. That said it's not a Memphis spot here, it is a Finlay signature spot.

I'm highly reccomending the Bad Attitude v Steamboat/Arn return bout from the Main Event. First match together is fun but the second one is full on blast with heel in peril section, Eaton bumping all over floor, and the ridiculous choice to have Arn work FIP and him being spectacular FIP.

Amazing Zuma passes away, shocked that he's only 85. http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2013/01/03/20469461.html Amazing Zuma talk on classics: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...t=002993#000000

looking for info on Embry in Global and instead found this career overview: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=27&page=4&s=0

Widely available stuff is the one tag tourney from Puerto Rico where Eric Embry is NE indy pre ECW Corino skinny and tagged with an unmasked Mummy Dan Greer; the Blanchard stuff where he is working as rookie protege to Bob Sweetan, one or two clipped AJ matches teamed with Grand Prix's Richard Charland and the USWA/World Class Stuff. In the unsorted section of Friedlander's list their is a Global ( Boris Malenko fed) light heavyweight tourney with him v. Hector Guerrero. That's about all I can come up with.

The WWWF/WWF/WWE is a formula fed. They have formulas that have worked in how to protect and promote fed around ace for half century. They are ignoring those formulas. WWF traditionally hasn't been an ace chases the belt fed. It has been an ace holds the belt fed. When your top guy holds the belt it helps give the top guy more value and it helps to give the belt more value. From January 1, 2008 to Jan 1, 2013 : John Cena has held the WWE belt 265 days HHH has held the belt 280 days Randy Orton has held the belt 334 days CM Punk has held it for 435 days I guess if you want to combine in the world heavyweight championship (which makes sense as when ace holds the title it means something although again not sure how much it means when its held by anyone else) Cena has held heavyweight gold 346 days Sheamus has held heavyweight gold 371 days Randy Orton has held heavyweight gold 444 days CM Punk has held heavyweight gold 526 days ( Figure all numbers are plus or minus 5 as this was done quick finger counting). The idea of using belt to try to make a star is not the way the WWF traditionally did things. Working against the ace with belt makes you a star. One of the long held booking truths of the WWF is you don't run face v face matches as they hurt the faces as they split crowd. Bruno v Morales is often said to be something that seriously hurt Morales' cred. Hogan v Ultimate Warrrior hurt Warrior. HHH as a guy who was repeatedly passed over is somewhat uncomfortable about his face opponent's going into match with him too hot and Meltzer would regularly talk about the booking of Booker T v RVD section in HIAC match as something done to cool down opponent for HHH. Meltzer is a HBK apologist and wouldn't talk about the use of HBK for same purpose. But still structurally everyone in the WWF understands that face v face is going to split a crowd. Cena is regularly put in face v face title matches. One of the stories from when Lashley left the WWE was that he had a rep for hvaing a big head since he asked if he could turn heel to work Cena. The WWE cared more about proptecting Lashley by keeping him face than they did about protecting their ace by providing the ace with a heel opponent. They cared more about their investment in Lashley than in their investment in their "ace" Cena. SLL talks alot about creating a diffferent mood for fed to be built around Cena. I'm less concerned in mood than actual structure. The WWWF/WWF/WWE traditionally has been constructed like a bee hive with goal of feeding queen. Purpose of good chunk of the booking is too build up credible heels to feed to ace. Heel goes over Dominic Denucci or Antonio Pugliese and he's suddenly credible for Bruno, heel goes over Strongbow or Monsoon on way to Morales, I think Strongbow filled same function for Backlund, my memory is at point where Roberts was face- heel program with Roberts led to heel program with Hogan. HHH is first time the fed was built around a heel ace but still the goal of the fed was to build up faces for him to eat (even if you had built into the structure the hbk match to cool face down). Brand split was really good at building up face to send to RAW, the whole Shane Douglas Triple Threat Evolution formula was all about building up challengers for HHH (as an aside I'd say Undertaker was guy during recent era who structurally filled Bobo-Andre role of guy who you sent heel to post being eaten up by ace). Is there any structure in place to build up and feed challengers to Cena, or do people for the most part just attack Cena leading to match? What's purpose of having a hive if it isn't going to do the work of building up food for queen to eat? What is structure, what is goal of rest of fed. If your just building up guys to be stars who float around with no purpose that's pretty shitty. At point where Cena didn't have a challenger for Mania, instead of building up heels you had DX squashing Orton/Edge. The blowoff to Randy Orton v Cena at 07 Unforgiven was a DQ finish because they wanted to protect Orton for Michaels return from injury. This is a hive that is failing to feed it's ace, more commited to feeding others. The Cena as guy who adult men don't like is a problem going back to at least the expansion of the female wrestling audience in the post WWII era. Guys who appeal to women and children alienate men who are scared of women and the children that ruin their bachelor lives tying them down to women. Anyone with any dealings with contemporary nerd culture has seen the "men not wanting women invading thir world" phenomena. Wrestling has figured out a variety of ways to deal with this over last 67 years. CMLL which is always talked about (incorrectly) as a fed that doesn't invest alot of thought into booking, used a variety of time tested strategies for pushing appropriate heels to deal with this problem when it arose with both Tarzan Boy and Mistico. In the WWE nothing structurally has been done, instead you have a situation where the men in the audience are booing the presence of the women. The WWE traditionally has been a fed built around protecting their ace, it's a formula fed that has formulas to do so. They've abondoned those formulas with Cena.

Beefcake is a guy who would go through spurts of trying to be a bigger moveset workrate wrestler in WCW. It's fucking awful and makes you want to scratch your eyes out. He's a guy who can barely do a chop and his nechbreaker finisher, him doing lots of stuff poorly is pretty mind numbing but it isn't lazy. You wish he'd be lazier. Have you ever liked Keirn? Cause this was straight up Florida style Keirn work in the Sting match.

They would endlessly joke about Parker's penis on commentary. The whole Parker, Sherri Harlem Heat pairing feels like something that was booked for the purpose of giving announce team material for double entendres. Was Sting really a guy who mailed it in vs. lower card guys in 94? Earlier today I watched Sting v Bad Attitude era Steve Keirn on dailymotion (WCWSN 10/29/94). Can't get lower on totem pole then Bad Attitude Steve Keirn in 94. Sting is working hard semi competitive match with attempts (some pretty awkward) at interesting reversals and escapes.

There was a NC indy around 99 or so that headlined with Pittman v Demolition Axe if you wanted to tie projects together. I actively like the Pittman v Duggan match, and some of the Regal stuff is amusing (although you watch and just wish Regal was working someone else).

The internet has Paul Lynde singing Bad Leroy Brown and Marie Osmond reading dada poetry but no Vk Wallstreet v either Kenny Kaos or Robbie Rage. OTOH, there are both Vk Wallstreet v Mr JL and VK v Barry Houston ( with announcers talking up the Houston v Lyger series). Both short and match my memory. Also on Dailymotion are four Vk Wallstreet v Pittman matches. The Wallstreet v Pittman WCWSN from when Long started managing PIttman is the best of the bunch. The WCW Main Event and Pro matches are fun but aborted too early in. The other one is a preposterous subbmissions match which is more amusing in theory than execution but wouldn't call boring and has a pretty amusing finish. There also is a Pittman/Joey Maggs v Wallstreet/Big Bubba match spinning off from the Pittman series and a substory of the Hacksaw v Wallstreet feud, the match is barely three minutes and mostly Maggs and skippable. You really wish WCW had been smart enough to book Wallstreet/Chip Minton v Pittman/Chris Adams, but missed booking opportunities is the story of WCW. There also is a Flair v Wallstreet match from Nitro that is preposterous and dumb booking but not dull. I also watched the Battlebowl Hacksaw/Wallstreet parejas increibles super short tags and one of the Hacksaw v Wallstreet matches which was worked as I described but I have no desire to watch more 96 Hacksaw so won't be watching the others anytime soon.

Dissapointed that Eric isn't chiming in here on VK Wallstreet's syndi run. One of the things that gets lost in the 80's heel in peril WWF tags vs JCP face in peril tags talk, is it misses the point that JCP/WCW didn't just run face in peril southern tags, they did heel in peril tags, face walking tall/heel bumping Kamala/Duggan/Watts v Kamala/Muhamad/Akbar type tags, one partner paired up wrestling while other partner brawls RnR v Poffo bros Steiner s v Nasty Boys type tags, all out brawl tag matches, stiff workrate moveset (Road Warriors, SST, Steiner) tags etc. That heavyweight workrate stuff is something that we don't see alot of anymore, but was all over WCW; Jerry Flynn v Saturn, two athletic power plant guys with a bunch of spots that don't know how to sell yet working a Choshu heavyweight sprint, etc. At some point in a WWF match the heel will "want to slow it down" and roll out a headlock or sub for the face to try to get a handclap going to fuel his power out ( HHH would be the exception as he often liked to be placed in sub by face before he'd do slow power out). But when watching WCW syndi, not a ton of guys who do the headlock, toss guy to floor to slow it down and bail from ring stall slow it down v power planters. VK Wallstreet was the guy who did it and on the one hand there was a novelty to it, on the other he was really kind of stiff and athletic in his "slap on a headlock slow it down" v athletic power planter with a bunch of spots. Vk Wallstreet syndi under six minute match series as technical heel grounding face-with-cool-spots opposite Pittman or one half of High Voltage were well done and he came accross enthusiastic in those matches. Also say his stuff with Hacksaw was some of the better stuff opposite Hacksaw in WCW as again instead of building Hacksaw match around heel stooging it was more built around heel offense.

About six years ago I rewatched a bunch of the J-Tex stuff. As a kid I watched J-Tex for Muta and Sawyer, on rewatch was surprised at how much Slater is the guy who holds the multimen matches together. The 91 Slater/Murdoch team in WCW didn't last long (post WCW they have a couple Puerto Rican matches that are mostly built on heel stooging) but they did run a long Zbysco/Arn v Murdoch/Slater heel v heel tag where both teams got a heel in peril section. It's super fun match.

Man. Hall is pretty lazy. As is Tarzan Boy/Toscano. Lots of guys have more impressive heat generating lazy performances than Muraco. Jeet Singh is also super lazy for just super drawing lazy heat.

Not gonna be tricked into talking about State Patrol, you might trick me into pointing out that Doom stated in 80s, or that HF never had a 80s match as great as Reed/Neidhart. But not going to trick me into talking about State Patrol. Still Luger/Tully!!!