tomk

How so? By past decade do you just mean 2011, 2012? I could maybe see that but I can't see arguing the past decade. I wrote this on Oct 24th of 2011: Cena pretty clearly should have been presented, booked and protected as the ace of the promotion for the last half decade. But I'd like to be pointed to the period where HHH wasn't presented, booked and protected above him. I think we are in agreement here. I don't think Meltz' explanation is neccesarily the actual reason HHH got the votes he did. But once Meltzer says "this" is enough to qualify as a Hall of famer in my HOF, it becomes harder to argue against a guy like Big Bossman, Kensuke Sasaki, Kamala, Raschke, etc.

I have no idea what this is supposed to demonstrate. This is a great match, no doubt. But it being a great match does not mean that Baba and the Destroyer went into it Kurt Angle style "I'm going to go out and have a five star classic". If Baba and the Destroyer go into a match with the Meltz quote of sole purpose to entertain, that doesn't keep the resulting product from being something so good that it can be analyzed like classic literature. Muddy Waters wrote great tunes that stand up to criticism and analysis so did Bill Monroe. this is Lester Dent's formula for putting together a 60,000 word pulp: http://www.paper-dragon.com/1939/dent.html This is Keeler's far more complicated formula: http://www.spinelessbooks.com/keeler/mechanics/sparrow.html

I don't in general read backstage gossip, but there is Booker T/Batista confrontation, the Joey Styles/ JBL one, near the end of Helms' career in the WWE the torch was writing about how he still is respected for hitting Bagwell. And there was gossip that Henry response to Hayes (treating it as you would in a corporate enviroment) was considered inappropriate. In 2008 to "teach" Coachman "a lesson" when he didn't appear scared enough when wrestlers brawled near announce table...he was set out into the ring where multiple guys stiffly hit unprotected versions of their finishers on him. Is that how things are normally done in a corporate enviroment with parent companies and stockholders open to lawsuits?

NINTENDO LOGIC: I think he should be in the HOF. Even if domestic buys and attendance went down while he was ontop. He has now been booked as the ace of a promotion for over a decade. I think he should have gone in 2005, if you have a HOF for carnies voted on by carnies than the guy who managed to bed down the daughter of biggest promoter in world should get into the HOF. None of those are the reason that Meltzer thinks HHH got into the HOF. When he does the bios of the HOF members HHH is listed as biggest drawing heel during the attitude era. I'm not saying that that's why he's in...but that's what Meltzer argues as basis of his candidacy. LOSS I associate Dino Bravo and Van Hammer with Ventura. JerryVonKramer Because the WWF's succes in the 80s wasn't as a TV product. Would Vince and Hogan go in if all they accomplished was getting a monthly gig on NBC? Wrestling wasn't promoted as primarily a TV product till Bischoff. My understanding form when I worked in Philly, was that Spaceman Frank Hickey was more of a regular TV presence in the 60s than Bruno. People went to the show to see Bruno and didn't complain about "where's the Spaceman?". There are guys who are in the HOF for there Tv presence. Fargo, Lawler, and Russel are guys who are pointed to as drawing giant TV ratings. Georgous George I think may have been less of an attendance draw vis a vis Thesz at the same time he was a giant TV star. But the point is the most important WWF figures of the 80s (Vince and Hogan) aren't in for their skill as TV personalities or succesfull TV promotion. If we want to rewrite the 80s wrestling wars as a fight for Tv dominance and not for ring attendance than I imagine we'd have to credit Ted Turner as the greatest wrestling promoter of all time...as no one has had more success from promoting wrestling tv programing.

Bob Roop is awesome. Member of Olympic team (although that probably shouldn't count for anything). Spectacular Tv interview, great play by play, great color guy (although again that shouldn't count for anything). Also a really great booker. Doesn't belong in a HOF. You should listen to his shoot, watch his matches, listen to his commentary, watch as much of his booking as you can find (some of the awesome Kevin Sullivan feud for Shire is available on youtube), friend him on facebook to read his writing...Worked the gimmick of being son of college educated folks who was too smart for wrestling, had a rep for going into a territory and stealing the talent to run shows himself (legit too smart for the wrestling promoters con). Too smart for wrestling, too smart for it's HOF. He's a legit Mexican candidate. I guy who everyone in lucha seems to respect a ton. The caveat on his rep is that he is a guy from the fifties/sixties who worked gimmick of respected legend in UWA of the 70s/80s. It's unclear to me wether he was a legit legend of the fifties/sixties or if working the gimmick later made him into a bigger star in people's mind. (Think Tugboat Taylor working the legend gimmick in global or HBK working the legend in the 21st century). http://www.luchawiki.com/index.php?title=Dory_Dixon Yeah they should be in, generally credited with getting over the trio format which is the form that most lucha has taken since. Wouldn't he be the top heel manager in Mid-South during their hot run? What's meant as inring performer? I don't know a ton about his career as in ring performer pre-managerial run. But he is an awesome in ring performer as manager...both able to be chickenshit and also come off as legit frighteningly tough. In a "if face wins he gets a whip to lash heel manager/if heel wins he gets a lash to whip face" type stip you legit don't want Akbar to have whip. I think he's probably better candidate then Albano. I really like his stuff with Andre. Also credited with getting the cage match gimmick over in Mexico. But, no It is ridiculous that Cien isn't in. If there is one important HOF project, I think it would be to counter Meltz' interpretation of Farmer's data. ehh, Hopefully next year they will build Mania around Shaq v Big Show. Then he'll be as qualified as Konan.

Really? I don't buy that. We have 3 Jumbo v Billy Robinson matches from the late 70s. They have a bunch of crowd popping signature spots and counters that they do pretty much in the same order in each match. They do those spots in different falls. I have a hard time believeing that Baba or either of the participants would tell you some theory why they were in one fall vs the other. The Meltzer quote where he talks about finding it funny when matches from the seventies are analyzed like classic literature when he's spoken to the wrestlers involved and their intention was merely to entertain the audience...was pretty clearly a response to discussions of Destroyer matches. It's one of the dumber things that Meltzer has ever said I know watching Iron Sheik v Slaughter that their goal was to keep an audience made up of lowest common denominator entertained. Muddy Waters was trying to entertain a drunk crowd Bill Monroe's goal was to entertain a crowd that mostly cared about dancing. Jack Kirby's goal was to entertain kids. Keeping an uneducated audience entertained motivated Cervantes and Charles Dickens. The "intention" of the authors behind much "classical literature" is entertaining fans. Entertaining audience and possibly scoring some tail is pretty much the motivation behind the development of all popular and vernacular forms of entertainment. Saying that one shouldn't analyze any cultural product that isn't "fine art" ( where artist is supposedly motivated by pure artistic/aesthetic principles) is dumb. When you talk to an old jump blues guy and you ask him about the interesting chord progressions in a particular song and he answers that he just knew the right order to play the tasty licks to get the women to shimmy...that doesn't mean that the chord or rhythms aren't worth analyzing. Flair has a signature bump that he only uses when he works face.It's a really cool face bump, he never uses it when he's working heel. It makes sense within the context of working face more than it does as a heel. But I don't expect that Flair would be able to explain that. that doesn't make it lacking in logic. It doesn't matter if Destroyer/Baba had no intention beyond laying out spots in an order that entertained audience. Meltzer's [if the] "author's intention wasn't to create work that stood up to analysis it shouldn't be analyzed" strikes me as silly.

Do you think Baba or the Detroyer would be able to explain that there matches make sense? Wrestling is a vernacular folk art form. The guy who gets a MFA in creative writing is taught theory and can explain the "logic" behind why elements of a story are put where they are. The painter who gets an MFA is taught theory and can explain the theoretical logic behind his artistic decisions. We don't expect that of artists working within vernacular folk traditions. All of the great pulp writers had formulas. The author of Doc Savage novels wrote approximately 10 6,000 word novels per year over the course of 16 years. He had an exact formula where he would havea scene of mistaken identity within the same twenty pages in each time. Harry Stephen Keeler had an even more elaborately kooky formula.They had formulas they didn't have theories about why those formulas worked. The pulp writers job is to develop a formula and put out the work, not to be able to explain the logic of why it works( or to even believe that there is a logic). The vernacular artist job is to produce the art. Its the critics job to explain why it works.

I would love for someone to debate him about this back and forth. I'd love to even do it myself. 1)We actually live in an age of mechanical reproduction. We no longer live in a world where Bruno learns to wrestle by watching Don Fargo, and Lawler learns by emulating Jackie Fargo. Prospective wrestlers watch tapes, OVW students watched tapes, Florida developmental students are assigned tapes, etc. Tapes exist and especially in a world where performing for the cameras is emphasized over performing to the audience....to pretend they don't is ridiculous. What happens with art in an era of mechanical reproduction (books after the invention of the printing press, painting after the ability to do prints, music after invention of phonograph, etc); is that certain fads are forgotten and stuff that continues to influence is seen as valueable. In world with mechanical reproduction being able to withstand test of time (to continue to have contemporary influence) is important. If someone told a literature class that they shouldn't value Anna Karenina above (the more popular at time of publication) Sarah Wiggins novel about how the evil Sioux indians held her captive...they'd be laughed at. Are we supposed to deny that tapes exist and that which withstands test of time continues to influence? 2) A good portion of how we study history is built on the idea that we are better able to see the big picture with the advantage of (the distance of ) historical perspective. As a result of research over the last twenty years we probably know more now about the early development of jazz than we did at any other point in time. Do we have to reject that research because it doesn't match up with what people with less access to the materials wrote in 1920?

Diffrent situation tho. It's one thing not to want your kid to take the family name because it would put a certain lvl of unfair exspectations & presssure on him when he's just starting out and you want him to earn his way in the business & stand on his own. It's entirely diffrent to tell your kid you can't have the name because you're a fuck up who's not good enough & will tarnish the legacy. For as crappy as David was for a while (he got decent enough by the end) he didn't hurt Ric's reputation one bit. It made Ric look like a shitty father. That didn't hurt Ric's reputation any. That's because he was already known as a shitty father. David's gimmick was essentially guy with shitty father. And even on a gimmick level "the jet flying, wheeling dealing, kiss stealin, stylin, profilin'" is the gimmick of a guy who is a failure as a family man. Santito isn't Ric Flair. Guy working the son of Santo gimmick being concerned that a guy who is unprepared working a grandson of Santo gimmick could easily reflect poorly on him isn't that crazy. It doesn't seem half as ridiculous as the WWE renaming Shane Helms, Gregory to avoid confusion with Shane McMahon or renaming Lance Cade Garrison to avoid confusion with Lance Storm.

I can't imagine Vince going with Slaughter. Yes, Slaughter was a hardcore fan favorite back then. But vince was totally willing to ignore the hardcores. Slaughter is the exact opposite of Vince's propaganda of moving away from blue collar smoke filled auidences. Its not that Slaughter is limited due to jingoistic appeal. He can be effective in more than "U.S.A." chanting stuff. Faces who embody a tough rugged blue collar value of enduring hardship are a staple in wrestling. But I don't think Vince has ever shown either an interest or ability to book them. I can't imagine Mcmahon ever being able to book Flair goes to Blackjack Mulligan's farm or Arn and Windham beat up tires. That's not the image of prowrestling that Vince either knows how or is interested in presenting.

It's the internet so I don't expect proper atttribution for anything and take stealing for granted. The most I can hope for is that if someone steals from me, they at least understand my point. still... Halibut, piano...both of you missed the true absurdist humor of salad in balloons. http://youtu.be/dyVA1SJPDl4

When you talk to fans of St Louis wrestling, Reed is talked about as a great worker. When you talk to fans of Florida wrestling, Reed is talked about as potentially great worker who didn't get alot of opportunities. When you talk to fans of Mid-South wrestling, Reed is talked about as a great worker. Wether accurate or not, St Louis, Florida and Mid-South are traditionally considered to be the places where fans were most work "smart"/most demanding of quality work.

In the discussion of underutilization of Scorpio in ECW I think you overlook the way that Heyman knew that the NJ3+1 weren't going to be with him long. They were understood to be the equivalent of more roided guys in OVW, or tall guys in 90s USWA. You can't build around them since you know they can be taken any minute.

I imagine if Credible hadn't had the stench of ECW on him...ex-Clique member who managed to keep his nose clean and hep free...he's still be getting WWE PPV dates.

It's reality television. By definition it's going to be awful. Humiliating people with overinflated sense of self worth is bread and butter of reality TV. Taking people with an overinflated sense of self, putting them in humiliating situations and seeing how they cope. The WWE runs lots of angles built on humiliating talent so the guys backstage can laugh. Have they ever run one that entertains the audience as well? The Diva competition got consistently low ratings. If you can't humiliate chicks with implants in a way that entertains an audience you have failed reality television 101.

Reading a bunch through this thread: MARTYEWR: I've seen alot of flatulists perform at modern side shows and I think there are a ton of spots you could do with it. Lots of visual stuff, blow gun spots, mists, giant spit takes, baby powder being used to enhance the visual. I don't know how the effect as accomplished. Don't know if flatulists are natural born talent, something that can be trained like sword swallowing or human blockheads, a surgical body modification or if it's a simple a smoke and mirrors stage effect. I can't imagine the WWE doing anything interesting with it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done. anarchristkkk: I imagine that's true. Bix This isn't a normal work enviroment. This is the completely backwards prowrestling work enviroment. She isn't going to go to HR when someone is offensive. When Mark Henry did the functional equivalent of going to HR when he was offended by a backstage guys behavior, it was criticized within the wrestling community. "Why did he complain instead of just punching him?" It's wrestling. Lashing out violently is the normative behavior. Al asked Didn't Akebono debut in Hustle as result of a pregnancy angle...emerging out of an egg Jonathan Winters on Mork and Mindy style? sek69 said: 1) Basing opinion of Santo on what his enemies leak to dirt sheets is a big mistake. and pretty much anything Konan says should be taken as entertaining stories from a amusing storyteller, nothing more. 2)I've never heard it as he was saving the gimmick for his son. He was protecting his own gimmick (Santo relative) from being watered down. He refused to work with promoters who would book his nephew who was using the relative of Santo gimmick. I doubt Konnan would work with Elizondo on a card with Konnan Big. Brusier Brody had to be King Kong when working in or near Dick the Bruiser's territory. This is standard stuff. There are stories of luchadors who've wanted to sell the hijo gimmick for payday and not let their kids take it. The more Mascara Sagradas the less original Mascara Sagrada can make. Gimmicks are valuable, guys who own their own gimmick are willing to protect it.

The obvious Hogan associate who knows his shit would be Jimmy Hart. TNA is essentially a fed full of Emory Hales with no one knowing how to present them. Isn't Jason Harvey credited with booking the whole LWO angle, that was better than most of the stuff in history of TNA. Chris Youngblood did a nice job booking Puerto Rico maybe five years ago. I actually think Invader 1 would be a spectacular booker for TNA and could really work with that talent pool and turn the stuff around. Puerto Rican bookers have to deal with both indulging and buttering up the owners as well as building up talent and structuring the cards to keep gates up. It shouldn't be hard to both indulge Hogan/Bischoff and build up hot angles for rest of card.

In about 31 or 32 Barney Google got out of the horse racing rackett and into pro wrestling management for about a year. the last time I read those strips I thought they were pretty succesful. I like Charles Burns "El Borbah" stories as well. And have no idea about the comic but this is a great panel:

Yes I agree completely. or OJ's

Yeah this

Ok so I get the reason for the joshi for people who don't like joshi. It's to show the variety of joshi outside of Toyota and Toyota derived stuff. I'm not sure why one would want to do this for lucha. There maybe eight to ten people who semi regularly write about lucha on the English language webs. Those guys have pretty diverse opinions and don't agree on a ton. There are probably another thirty or so people who follow lucha and follow the lucha discussions but don't write a bunch. I'm sure there can be things done to make it easier for those people to join the discussion. And there should be a place where people who enjoy lucha but are confused by certain points can be helped out. While I find it humorous that there are NJ juniors fans and Kobashi fans who find the opening matwork in lucha to be pointless, I don't see the value in trying to make converts or finding them lucha matches where the opening matwork is worked like meaningless NJ junior opening matwork. There are things that can be done to improve the quality of lucha discussion on the web. But without meaning to insult individual prowrestlingonly posters I think the last thing lucha discussions is fifteen low content devils advocate threads, posts complaining about the current trend of people thinking 90s EMLL was better than AAA, long MJH posts about how good Konan is, or complaints about the Brazos fattness from the ex-obese.

That's hard to say. Juve's dad has a rep as a partyer/partaker. The question with drug use in deviant subcultures is if someone can use drugs and still follow the norms of that community or are they an annoyance. If he had done as much drugs but was in a supportive drug culture would he have turned out better than being in one where guys entertained themselves by watching each other fall? There is no way to tell.

Huh? These have always been the criticisms of Vince's product and this has always been Vince's dream from the start. He's taken wrestling out of the "smoke filled back rooms" and turned it into a modern corporate product. He's created a highly controled enviroment where management/the promotion means more than the interchangeable talent. This has been the goal he has been working toward his entire adult life.

I would highly reccomend Chad Dell's "Revenge of Hatpin Mary". http://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Hatpin-Mary-...l/dp/0820472700 It's clearly a dissertation that's turned into a book. Books are written very differently from dissertations and there is stuff both lost and gained in the translation. If someone's actually interested, it might be worth tracking down the actual dissertation. I would second the reccomendation of Hitchcock's stuff at the TV party web site. I'd also reccomend Lee Benaka's interviews with Meltzer, Keller and Goodhart. http://www.deathvalleydriver.com/Benaka/benakaindex.html

This is the match list for Dean Rasmussen's old joshi addiction comp which had the same aim: