Coffey

Oh man, I remember that. Is it on You Tube or anything? I'd love to see that again. It really was a great video package.

Because to a lot of people, just because it's not WWE, it's better. Personally, up until about three weeks ago or so, I found iMPACT! damn near unwatchable. The Samoa Joe/Scott Steiner and Kevin Nash/X-Division stuff has helped a lot. I liked the ECW/WWE show last night. I wasn't huge on the commentary but I did like the insider jokes that kept getting thrown around. Just too many guys trying to talk at the same time to get in their pot shots. It was too hectic. It was cool to see some old faces again. I was actually surprised that Mickie James went over Jazz. I was surprised that Rob Van Dam beat Rey Mysterio clean, although I guess if you follow Smackdown, it's not that big of a shocker. The match was certainly hindered by the commercial breaks but it was still decent to good. I liked John Cena's promo. I liked how he acknowledged if he won he'd be in the middle of a riot. Foley's promo was good too...but it's basically the same "serious" promo that he always has. That blown spot bump that Edge took looked HORRIBLE. My goodness, he's lucky he can still walk. Dreamer was definitely blown up. It's a good thing he's in a tag match where he can brawl because even if his partner is jelly-boned Terry Funk, it'll still give Dreamer more time, or a slower pace at least, to work with. He's definitely not in ring shape. Sabu/Cena was better than anticipated with the expecting clusterfuck ending. Sabu didn't blow any spots that I can recall and hit a damn good triple-jump Moonsault. That's probably the first time a lot of the fans there had seen that move. Even though he doesn't have any ties to ECW really, Big Show "turning" made me mark out. It did kind of feel like the old nWo days for a minute. I'm hoping that Show will be booked as the monster that he is in ECW...and hopefully not booked like Big Sal.

...and even then, he still got some mic time. It was minimal, granted, but they (WCW) built-up the segment (Goldberg speaks...TONIGHT on NITRO!) and then Goldberg was short & sweet, but to the point (Who's next!?) It stood out and people wanted to hear him talk. Of course, it was because they'd never heard him talk before, I'm sure, but it still was a decent way to, I don't know, "develop" his character? I'm certainly not denying that Goldberg got pushed and was super, mega-over.

I don't think using Goldberg as your prime example is the best way to talk about wrestlers getting over without mic time. He started out 176-0, squashed everyone and even went over Hogan clean.

I said "we" could defend our opinions. If I thought it was just going to be me against the world, I'd have a made a "tell me why I'm wrong for liking HHH" thread. If there's something Triple H knows about, it's water. If you're looking for a kayfabe reason, he could've just remembered them doing it to HBK before his Kiss My Ass segment.

What do I have to convince you of, that we have different opinions? That's why my opinion was unpopular, hence the thread. What more can be said that won't just end with someone saying "I disagree?" It's not like I'm going to sway anyone's judgment.

I've always heard this too. This is terrible news; he was so young! I remember writing a letter to Hogan after 'Quake squashed Hogan on the Brother Love show. Tenta, you were a great heel.

I don't know how to respond to this. Especially coming from someone with the user name "Wild Pegasus" whom just make a "top 50 favorite WWE Benoit matches" topic. I like Triple H because he's entertaining to me. It has nothing to do, really, with how he's booked. Even if he shows ass and gets dominated in a program, like he did with Batista, he still entertains me. I guess that's why it's an unpopular opinion? Saying Triple H is "in no way special" is just silly. What can't he do?

This is sort of like the "State Your Unpopular Opinions" thread at TSM, except I thought we could actually defend ours here:[li] Triple H is my favorite wrestler He has been for sometime and now that he's seemingly turning face, a lot more people are coming around on him. Before he feuded with Cena, though, I was trying to defend HHH daily against multiple naysayers from several different message forums. I just like his persona and his wrestling style. He really does remind me of a mix of several old NWA wrestlers. Namely Harley Race and Ric Flair. I also think he's entertaining in non-wrestling segments. For example, on Raw, I marked out when he spit out the water that Shane spiked. [/li][li] I like the Nash Vs. X-Division Angle in TNA I've been talking about this in HTQ's blog over at TSM. HTQ certainly makes good points and is rightfully doubtful about how it'll all play out. I'm more thick-headed, so I'm giving Nash the benefit of the doubt. I think it's made for some entertaining TV so far which is something that TNA has desperately needed. [/li][li] I'm not high on Chris Benoit As you can read in the topic I started about Benoit. I don't hate Benoit, I'm just not up-in-arms over him like the rest of the internet. He's a great wrestler, it's just that in this day and age, I think you have to bring more to the table than being a great wrestlers. At least when you're on the WWE stage.[/li]

I agree 100% but it's still a problem. I don't think that's completely accurate but I can see the argument being made. For example, people cared about Bobby Lashley winning or losing when he still had the undefeated streak going. People want to see the Great Khali lose. Benoit has had chances in the past to get over on the stick and has failed, like you said though, he doesn't get a lot of chances because WWE don't have any faith in him. Just like Rob Van Dam and Bobby Lashley. They know they can't talk, so they don't let them talk too often. Benoit doesn't come out and cut a promo that puts me to sleep, he just comes out and if I don't care about his opponent, I change the channel. It's different when it's a PPV but on TV, it's like, the match isn't going to be anything amazing and even if it's good, it'll be ruined by a commercial break, so I have no investment in his TV matches.

See, this is also where I disagree because Benoit is in WWE. It'd be different if he were still wrestling in Japan or if he was in Ring of Honor. He's not, he's in WWE, where that shit certainly is important, dare I say the most important. Benoit puts on great PPV wrestling performances. I can't dispute that. The problem is leading up to said PPV match, I have nothing that pulls me in and makes me want to watch his PPV match. I know I'm talking in circles, but that's my point. Benoit may be a good wrestler, or as you put it "Benoit is a wrestler who wrestles really well. That's his appeal. That's all there is to it." That's my problem: that's all there is to it. I don't care if Benoit wins or losses. I don't care if he gets screwed or gets revenge. I have investment or interest in his persona from a fan perspective.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I liked Rude, DiBiase and Hennig as previously mentioned and they could all go. It's just that in-ring (and outside of the ring) they were simply more entertaining. Benoit does very little in his matches that excite me. Especially when he's been doing the same by-the-books WWE style match for years now. Am I supposed to get excited when he goes for the Diving Headbutt because it might get a long two-count?

That's bullshit. Just 'cause I don't like Benoit doesn't mean I'm not a real wrestling fan. I shouldn't have to work at liking him...he should make me like him. I guess I want more out of wrestlers than actual in-ring wrestling talent. I still watch Nikita Koloff and Michael Hayes, for example.

This is a good summary of how I kind of feel. Except, for me, it's just a part of it. I also find his character boring and this charisma that he has, apparently, doesn't shine on all...cause it missed me.

No, it's more shallow than he's old. I just don't like him. He doesn't entertain me. I think it's a crappy gimmick...but, then again, Goldust worked.

I guess they're too busy running return videos of Batista & Kennedy, showing not one but TWO See No Evil ads (weeks after the theatrical release), having Great Khali on Piper's Pit and having Vito come out in drag. Honestly though, I don't want to see Tatanka on Smackdown. I'd just get upset if he ever went over anyone.

Maybe it's 'cause the fake Kane looked dumpy as fuck. His hair was terrible, his body shape was terrible and his Chokeslam was terrible.

I may be the only person in existance that still sides with Batista in all of this.

I understand that, Rock was just my example because he's the glaring name that stands out. Why? Because when Rock was still active, he was bashed on-line and Benoit has always been praised. "The Rock can't wrestle." "Another twenty minute promo." etc. To me, Benoit is no better than Rhyno. Benoit is certainly a better worker than Rhyno but...once again, they just do shit in the ring and I sit on my hands for the most part. I think Benoit is in the spot he should be in right now...but that doesn't mean when his music hits I stand up and start cheering. Benoit isn't the total package...but why does everyone overlook his weaknesses all the time? By everyone I mean people like Wild Pegasus who seem to live for Benoit and Benoit alone. TSM, DVDVR, etc. Benoit is universally praised simply because of his ring work, yet other people can't be universally praised for an area that they accel at? It's fickle. It's like everyone name drops Benoit 'cause they've seen other people name drop him.

Alright, here's a sort of different way to take this thread. When talking about "workrate" (a term that I'm not too keen on) Benoit's name is often mentioned towards the top of the list, when composing a list. Of course, so is Kurt Angle, whom most "smarks" would agree is beneath Benoit in terms of "workrate." So, if you were to make an all-encompassing list, everything that it takes to be successful in the wrestling business...is Benoit still there? That's kind of my perspective on the thing. The Rock wasn't an amazing wrestler really but he'd certainly be on "the list." I don't know if Benoit would. People talk about matches as if they're art and what the wrestlers do in the ring is an artform. Well, if that's the case, everything the wrestlers do is part of the same art and Benoit fails in some departments whereas others don't. If you're on camera, you're performing. When looking at the whole picture, it seems a lot of other workers bring more to the table, as a whole, than Benoit. However, for whatever reason, Benoit seems to get a free pass because his in-ring is that good. Take away the bell-to-bell from Benoit and what's left? Not a lot. Take away the out-of-ring from The Rock and what's left? Enough to get by. Does that make sense? It's sort of a moot point because wrestling should play to wrestlers strengths but even in ECW Heyman was trying to get Benoit over on the stick. Wrestling is a business. You have to sell the fans on wanting to see a match. So, why do the fans want to watch any of Benoit's matches? He's not a compelling character and he never has great storylines building to blowoff matches. He's just a good wrestler. I don't know how well this relates but my favorite parts of wrestling, the memorable moments, aren't usually entire matches. It's the simple stuff, like Austin coming out and hitting the Stunner on Regal because he was reading Hamlet. Or HBK throwing Jannetty out the Barbershop window. When those moments build to a match, then I care about the match. I like the wrestling aspect outside of matches a lot. Like random run-ins to hit finishers...not like WCW did with every match ending in a screwjob...but like Raven hitting Evenflow DDT's when he wasn't in a match or Kevin Nash coming out to Jackknife Powerbomb X-Divison wrestlers after they've already lost.

OK, so argue it then. What's this "well defined character" of Benoits? He's a "wrestling machine~!" How is he better, kayfabe-wise, than Kurt Angle? I'd argue that Benoit has more intensity than charisma. People flock to the great intensity that he brings, like Goldberg.

I don't think it's fair that WWE gave Chris Benoit a "thank you" title run when Rick Rude never got one and he had more tools than Benoit. DiBiase and Hennig too. Of course, since when has wrestling ever been fair? Different era's anyway. Maybe it's because the internet wasn't the monster that it is today back when those three were in the midcard of WWF but I don't get a lot of the Benoit love. I'm more impressed when a bad wrestler has a good match than when a good wrestler continues to have good matches. I was genuinely surprised at the Smackdown where Henry beat Rey for example. Compare that to Finlay/Benoit from this last Judgment Day PPV.

So, here we are. Since I made a new thread, I thought I should add more content to the original post and perhaps expand on my opinion more. Chris Benoit is pretty much the embodiment of "smark-darling." He has a ton of wrestling experience, great selling, good facial expressions and he's one of the best wrestlers currently active as far as it pertains to psychology. He's put on great matches in countries all over the world. He's worked for ECW, WCW & WWE. He trained in the infamous "Hart Dungeon." So, why then, do I find him so boring? It's certainly not what he does in the ring. I've found several of his matches gripping, such as his Royal Rumble match with Kurt Angle. However, even that match, to me, took awhile to get started. Maybe it's because he's so universally loved on-line that my expectations for him are raised too high? Or maybe, just maybe, it's because he lacks that certain "it" to put him on the next level as an entertaining superstar. That superstar quality. The charisma and out-of-ring quality. Perhaps it's because my attention span is too low and I don't want to sit around and wait for his matches to start getting good? Has WWE brainwashed me into being accustomed to short, "WWE style" matches that are "right to the point" so to speak. So, when Angle/Benoit are given half an hour to work, the first ten minutes feels like filler to me instead of building a story. I don't know. To me, like I previously said, it takes more than just great in-ring work to be considered a good wrestler. As much as people hate WWE and Vince McMahon, he has a point whenever he talks about "making movies" or "telling stories." As lame as a lot of the shit is, you can't just throw great workers into the ring with no rhyme or reason, tell them to have a great match and have that be the end of it. Look at Ring of Honor. So many great matches that each month dozens are forgotten. That's how Benoit comes off to me. Forgotten. His character consists of "I can wrestle good, so I'll beat you" and that's, really, about it. That is boring. I've watched Benoit in the J-Cup tournament in Japan. I watched him when he was a member of the IV Horsement in WCW. I've seen him win the WWE World Title at Wrestlemania by making HHH tap-out in the main event. It's all been good...but I'd still take a "sing-along with the Rock" over all of it. Also, because it's a thread about Benoit, here's an animated gif that my friend Jeremy made with Pivot Stick Figure Animator entitled "Benoit's Last Day." I got a kick out of it:

Maybe it does deserve it's own thread but I don't like Chris Benoit. I never really have. He's certainly had good matches in the past but for the most part, I find him extremely boring. To me, it takes a lot more than having good matches to be a good wrestler. Maybe that's why I'm a WWE fan? As far as TNA is concerned, I'm glad that the last episode of iMPACT! did well ratings wise. It was a good show. They have a couple of storylines going on right now that I care about. Good word of mouth from the internet (for the most part) is the reason that I went out of my way to watch the show...and I'm glad that I did. DVDVR makes TSM look like a bunch of Einsteins collaborating on scientific theories.