Coffey

Seems like a pretty lackluster pick to me. HHH getting rid of one of the only wrestlers that currently seems to have his number. Conspiracy theorists unite! To be honest though, Benoit hasn't done a lot for me in a long time. I'm not sad to see him go.

The Fabulous Freebirds The Dudley Boys The Hardy Boys Edge & Christian The New Age Outlaws Demolition The Legion of Doom/Road Warriors Power & Glory The Rockers The Hart Foundation The Outsiders The Dream Team The Twin Towers The Brainbusters The Hollywood Blondes La R?sistance The Powers of Pain The British Bulldogs Strike Force Harlem Heat The Nasty Boys The Steiner Brothers The Rock N' Roll Express The Midnight Express Doring/Roadkill Nova/Chetti Whipwreck/Tajiri The Pitbulls The Eliminators Public Enemy Doom The Natural Disasters

If she has a good eye for talent, why is she your girlfriend? Ooh, ice burn.

Or someone better to come along. Hey, it might happen. Besides, I don't think that even WWE will call him the best ever. He hasn't made them enough money. They're prolly still dubbin' that shit on Hogan or Austin.

Not everyone has income.

Why can't we just have a differing opinion? There's "no way" that I can think Triple H has good punches? I've seen Jim Duggan punches and they didn't stand out...just like him in general. I know you're on an old Mid-South kick right now but that doesn't mean I share your opinions. Heh.

You assume I haven't seen them? I think Trips does a good job, for the most part, in the ring. It's outside of the ring where he doesn't shine.

See, I disagree with almost all of that. I think he's a great wrestler. I think his bumping is fantastic. Look at his selling for Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner. Not to mention Shelton Benjamin and Chris Benoit. His selling is good too. Especially when he's going to go over in the match. It makes it look like he overcame everything and still won. He's sold well for everyone from Randy Orton to Batista. I like his punches too. His move set? I think it's the best in the company. Especially in the longer matches where he incorportates legwork. His match with Booker T. at Wrestlemania is a great example. I like how he uses a lot of knee moves. In fact, the only thing I'd change is to have him knee his opponent in the midsection insted of kick them before the Pedigree. I agree about the mic skills though. Average at best.

I like Triple H. I really do. I like his entrance. I like his finisher. Hell, I like the way that he works the majority of his matches. The problem is him as a whole. He's basically the same character that he was five to six years ago. The only difference is that now he wears nice outfits instead of a jean jacket over a leather jacket. He's also with Ric Flair now instead of Stephanie McMahon. At least on camera. When he gets on the microphone, which is often, he usually makes his point in the first minute. Then he just keeps repeating himself as if we didn't get the message. He'd be a lot better off if he just made his statement matter of factly and then went on. If he's going to be so dominant, he should give others a chance to shine on the mic. Just cut promo's Benoit style. He doesn't need to talk for twenty minutes when every other word is "you know." Obviously he shouldn't be the entire focal point of the show. The main event should always have at least three guys. That's not what they've been doing on Raw. Instead, we get Triple H and Triple H's opponent. The opponent's name doesn't even matter. Triple H Vs. whomever is going to lose the war in the feud. Yeah, they may get some battles, but ultimately Triple H will be on Raw with the big gold belt and another number at the end of his title reigns. He wants to be like Flair. That's obvious. The difference is that Flair made his career out of making other people look good. He did it with Barry Windham, Bobby Eaton, Kerry Von Erich...hell, even Ronnie Garvin. Triple H just dominated all facets of everything. He dominates storylines, mic time, match time. He dominates feuds and gimmick matches. He has the most established move. He has the most established, active championship reigns. Hell, even the commentators are completely fixated on him. They can't help but talk about him during the undercard matches because Triple H is all that matters. Just because Triple H has the occasional match with "midcarders" like TAKA, Jeff Hardy, Bubba Ray Dudley and the like doesn't mean that they're going to be looked at like Dusty Rhodes, Barry Windham and Ricky Steamboat. Triple H, right now, is doing to Batista what he did to Randy Orton before him. He did it to Goldberg, Booker T, Shawn Michaels and countless others. The only people that seem to be up on him are Shelton Benjamin and Chris Benoit and they don't seem to be fixtures of anything. Shelton is a faceless IC champion and Benoit is currently thrown into the random ECW mix. Triple H is afraid to show ass. That's the problem. That's the difference between a good heel and a dull, boring, "we've seen this already" bad guy. Heels are supposed to be chased by the babyface. They're supposed to lose the blowoff match. The problem is that if Triple H does lose a match, it's never blown off. He lost to Batista at 'Mania. He gets a rematch. He loses the rematch. He gets into a #1 Contenders tournament. He loses in the tournament. He gets another rematch. It just doesn't make any fucking sense. Triple H is the heel, yet he's currently the one doing the chasing. Triple H is the heel, yet he's the one that never loses. Do you think Hulkamania would've worked if Hogan was heel? Do you think Steve Austin would've stayed as hot as he did had WWF not turned him face? The Rock? When they were heels, they were all "cool" heels. Triple H is a cocky heel, which means he shouldn't dominate but he does. At first, Triple H was scared of Batista. I remember the facial expressions. The left an impression on me. They were that good. Now? Triple H is leaving Batista bleeding. He demands a title shot that he doesn't deserve and he gets it. In his setting no less. What gives? Shouldn't Bischoff, even if he does favor the heels, step in and say something? Do something? Shouldn't Edge get a shot before Triple H again? Christian? Flair even? Nope. Edge is thrown in with random jobbers to ruin the ECW PPV, Christian is more worried about leaving Raw and Flair is still a lackey. I like Triple H but I would like him more if he decided that the other wrestlers mattered. I remember watching old WWF PPV's and TV shows. It wasn't all about the main eventers. It was all about the gold. The tag teams wanted the tag team titles. The heels wanted single gold, regardless of whom had it. Mr. Perfect wanted the IC title. It didn't matter if Bret Hart or The Mountie had it, he wanted his shot. I want to see more wrestler like Hassan making points about the gold. I want them to make it a point that each wrestler can be beat by any other wrestler. It shouldn't be an entire roster of midcarders just waiting and moping around until they can lose to HHH for a month or two.

Here's my list of the several things that jump into my head:[li] The slow turn of Batista against HHH.[/li][li] Jeff Jarrett being told that he can't use a guitar, so he used a chello.[/li][li] Matt Morgan promising to "never show his face in OVW again" if he lost. So, he now sports a mask.[/li][li] "Fallen Angel" Christoper Daniels: X-Division Champion[/li][li] Paul London: WWE Cruiserweight Champion[/li][li] The Royal Rumble match. I didn't know who was going to win but I knew it'd be down to Batista and John Cena. Except for the botched finish, I'd say it went off pretty successfully, even without Patterson.[/li][li] John Cena & Bradshaw's brawl at Judgment Day.[/li][li] Shelton Benjamin Vs. Shawn Michaels in the first round of the Gold Rush tournament on Raw.[/li][li] Chris Masters entrance.[/li][li] Eddy Guerrero slowing turning heel against Rey Mysterio.[/li][li] MNM.[/li][li] Muhammad Hussan's new attire. His entrance music. Daivari wrestling. Hassan putting Eugene in the Camel Clutch at Wrestlemania.[/li][li] Jake "The Snake" Roberts showing up on The Highlight Reel.[/li][li] Marty Jannetty's return.[/li][li] Christian. His promo last week. Asking Tomko to "give him a beat" at Royal Rumble. Saying he don't know who Mark Jindrak is but "you know I've beat him." He's just comedic gold.[/li][li] Several "Wrestlemania Goes Hollywood" commercials.[/li][li] Calito "Caribbean" Cool and his Cabana.[/li][li] Colt Cabana's list of "people he'd like to have a 3-way with".[/li][li] Maven's progression and usage of John Walter's "Lung Blower" as his finisher.[/li]

...fucking Albert and Rick Steiner are working in Japan. You're going to tell me that Angle wouldn't be able to cut it?

It's pretty said when I think that the high point of the show is a cameo by Christian. On the bright side, I did get a new keyboard today.

I would really like to reply to this topic more in-depth, however I don't know how long my keyboard will allow it to happen. I've been having a lot of problems with it lately. It used to just be fixed with a simple restart. Then I had to start unplugging the keyboard cord and re-plugging it back in. Now, neither of those options work. When it goes out, it's out for awhile. It's down until it decides to work again. The problem is, I don't lose complete function of the keyboard, it just acts as if the Alt button is always held down. So, if I hit "e" for example, it's like hitting "Alt + e" which brings up a window. I guess it's a nice little way to educate myself on all the hotkeys until I can get a new keyboard. Anyway, onto the topic at hand. First, I'll just state what comes to my mind about Angle. Then I'll address specific statements made in this thread. I think that's the best way to go with it. I don't want to just reply with "I agree" or "I disagree." There's been a lot of generalizations made so far. I'm sure that I'll make some more. I don't know how well thought out this post is going to be, or if it's going to make a lot of sense. I'm not going to go back and edit it to put my paragraphs in order. I'm sure that I'll jump around a lot. I'm sure that I'll ramble even more. So, I'm sorry ahead of time. I hope you can straggle through the mess. I think Kurt Angle is a good worker. I don't think that he's perfect. I don't think that anyone in WWE is. Hell, I can't think of any wrestler anywhere that is. Botches happen. Sometimes you get stuck with a shitty opponent. Sometimes things don't click. Sometimes you are trying to salvage something that can't be salvaged. Hell, sometimes it's the storyline, the gimmick, the referee or the announcing that kill a match. I've watched many matches that I thought sucked simply because Earl Hebner was the referee. Kurt Angle, for the most part, makes gold out of a lot of straw. Sure, his matches with "better" workers are better matches but that's not because of Angle. It's not because of his opponent either. It's both. It takes two to tango. A good match is obviously going to be better if both men in the match are better than average workers. Chris Benoit isn't having fabulous matches with Luther Reins either. Shitty workers are still shitty no matter whom is trying to carry them to something watchable. You can only do so much. That being said, when Angle is put with a good worker, for the most part, I enjoy the match. I've seen matches from Jericho where he's in the ring with good workers and I still didn't like the match. I can say the same for Steve Austin, Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit. Yes, I can say that about Angle too. That's my point. Why is Kurt Angle getting singled out? For the most part, he delivers. You can't use the "WWE style" as a knock against him anymore than you could use it against Rey Mysterio or Chris Benoit. Yet Benoit is still universally accepted as a good worker? Angle is still good. He's just as good as Benoit is to me. Better, even, when factoring in non-wrestling roles. Hell, just a couple of days ago, right here, we had some people discussion how Benoit has "fallen off" recently. So, I'm asking, what are you expecting? What are you wanting to see? A few extra stomps to the opponents ankle isn't going to make you dislike Angle any less. It's not going to turn him into some psychological wrestling guru. If he works the leg, psychologically speaking, the Ankle Lock still doesn't make any sense. I remember watching a match between Chris Benoit and Rob Van Dam. Obviously RVD doesn't have the greatest psychology. The move that he sells the most is his own finisher! Anyway, in the match, Chris Benoit worked the shoulder the entire match. The Swandive Headbutt hit the shoulder. Benoit connected with shoulder breakers. Hell, he even did rolling northern light suplexes with the arm tucked Arn Anderson style. It was amazing to watch. What happened in the end? Five-Star Frogsplash, thanks for playing. None of it payed off. Hell, RVD even escaped the Crossface and slapped Benoit in his own shitty version of the move. Benoit did everything right but it was still disappointing. In the end, no matter what Benoit did, he was still going to lose. He was still working in vain. It makes all the psychology come off as a waste of time to me. I'd rather the psychology not be there if they're just going to lose. Ric Flair was the best example of this. In every single match he'd kill his opponents leg. He'd slap on the figurefour leglock and they wouldn't tap out. The opponent would flip it over. They'd make it to the ropes. They'd power out of it. Whatever. Yet Flair would still win matches with rollups and cheating. So, why didn't he just try a new gameplan? It's obvious that the legwork wasn't getting the job done. From a common sense standpoint, if something doesn't work, you'd quit trying it. Right? Flair should've just focused his entire gameplan around cheating. Find new ways to distract the referee so that you can low blow, eye poke and pull the hair of your opponent. Find ways to get your feet on the ropes outside of the refs viewpoint. Slap your opponent in the head with a pipe after a ref bump. It would've all been more believable than watching a once established move no longer have any effect. I think the same thing when watching Kurt Angle matches. It's like, why bother with the psychology from a common sense standpoint? The opponent isn't going to tap out to the move any quicker. Hell, half the time the move gets reversed anyway. That's why I think the leg grapevine point made earlier was crucial. Everytime that he grapevines the leg, he gets the victory. So, why doesn't he just apply it that way every time? There seems to be unwritten laws in wrestling. Obviously you don't want the crowd to know who's going over before the match happens. So, you stick to your gameplan. You work the leg. You work the back. You work the arm. You set up for your finisher. That's what I think Angle does. Or at least, at one time he did. He works the back. He's setting up the Angle Slam. It just never gets the job done. So, the Ankle Lock is the backup gameplan. It's just somewhere along the way, he forgot to throw the Angle Slam in there and instead opted for earlier Ankle Lock attempts. It's just his character progression over time. Angle doesn't botch a lot of spots. He makes a good goofy character. He makes a good serious character if he doesn't have to back it up on the microphone. He has great facial expressions. Selling, obviously, isn't his strong point. It makes sense for his character though. It's always brought up that he's an olympic gold medalist. That he wrestled, and won, with a broken neck. So, why would he stay down after a german suplex? Why would a clothesline make him sell? To be honest, I don't care about Angle stealing other wrestlers moves all that much either. As long as it's not a finisher. I don't mind him using the rolling german suplexes. That means that he learned something in the ring from one of his opponents. At least that's how I look at it. No one complains about the Three Amigos that Eddie Guerrero does. Val Venis was doing that shit four years ago! So, basically, my thoughts on Angle go something like this: I don't think he's a bad worker. I don't think he's the best but he's still better than the average WWE worker. Same for mic skills. He has his high points and his low points. Sometimes his promos are money, sometimes they're goofy. Sometimes they seem way too forced. I think that this statement is unfair. Who's to say that if he went to work for another company that he wouldn't be any good there? He's made good of what was presented to him. He's excelled at what was expected of him. He could just as easily work in TNA, ROH or Japan. I have no doubt in my mind. Especially now that he's created a name for himself. I addressed this a little bit earlier in my post. When he's with the right character, he's great in promo's and on the microphone. He's provided me with some of the best entertainment both in and out of the ring in my history of watching professional wrestling. He was great on the mic in Team ECK. He was good when he was with Austin and they were both kissing up to Vince McMahon. I liked what he was doing during the Love Triangle with Stephanie and Triple H too. I already went over that pretty thoroughly. Overhyped when compared to what? The rest of the roster? Shit, most of the roster is trash. When compared to the other main eventers? Triple H & The Undertaker? The Rock who's gone? Austin who's gone? Maybe you mean to Guerrero and Benoit? Benoit who Angle is better than in the overall department or Guerrero who couldn't carry the load as the world champion? What are we basing this off of? I think Angle is one of the better packages in WWE right now. Even hurt. Also, since when do you have to be the best wrestling in the company to be any good? WWE should have the best talent in the world. Angle coming in second or third every year certainly doesn't make him bad. I'm singling out this quote because it made some impact and I'm not seeing it. Especially in WWE. What "little things" does Jericho do at all? By that I assume you mean nothing but big moves over and over? You'd rather he threw in headlocks and shit? Maybe I just don't know what you mean. He certainly has good transition. He might not be the best seller but he has transition. My liking of Angle is for personal reasons not because of what some e-schmuck says. I can definitely see this quote having a lot of truth to it. Scott Keith's word used to be gospel as well. That's simply not true. His match with Benoit at the Royal Rumble certainly wasn't that. Besides, it's "WWE style." The same thing people knock other wrestlers for. He's not doing anything different from anyone else on the roster. I guess that's part of the problem with the product. That being said, Angle, at one time, still stood out more than almost anyone else. I've seen Angle do Moonsaults off of cages. I've seen him do Olympic Slams off the top rope and off podiums. I've seen him brawl with Austin and wrestler with Benoit. He may have slowed down a little since all of his injuries but he's certainly a lot more than punch, kick, finisher.

ONE NIGHT STAND MATCHES Lance Storm with Dawn Marie vs Chris Jericho Extreme luchador action: Rey Mysterio vs Psychosis A three way dance: The insane luchador Super Crazy vs Tajiri with Sinister Minister vs Little Guido Eddie Guerrero vs Chris Benoit Tommy Dreamer and The Sandman vs Bubba & D-Von Dudley ECW One Night Stand will feature special appearances by: Paul Heyman The return to PPV of Rob Van Dam with Bill Alfonso Tazz Spike Dudley Al Snow with Head Sabu Balls Mahoney Danny Doring and Roadkill CW Anderson Rhyno Joel Gertner Axl Rotten Justin Credible Kid Kash Masato Tanaka Mikey Whipwreck with Sinister Minister The BWO - Big Stevie Cool, Hollywood Nova, and The Blue Guy CREDIT: http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/matches.jsp ==== Things look good on paper thus far.

Just type that shit up already, jobber.

The Texas Tornado finished with a claw followed by a discus punch. He was terrible. He was rocking the fringe when that shit wasn't cool anymore. Didn't he also have half a foot? Besides, he was a Von Erich. He was cursed...just like the Armstrongs. I can't really add anything to the topic as the inital question was answered a long time ago but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Eh, the way I see it, if your team wasn't good enough to have a tag team name, you shouldn't be in the tag team tournament. I know I'm not going to vote Owen & Davey over anyone like The Bushwhackers or The Legion of Doom.

I liked Bradshaw's WWE Hardcore title reign. I won't front. He got the new belt made with Texas on it and he wore a life preserver against his opponent in a match on Sunday Night Heat. I wouldn't say that I "like" Bradshaw, although I definitely don't dislike him. He's entertained me a lot. Hell, A.P.A. had me laughing all the time. My pops used to mark for Bradshaw. Not like he marked for Rick Steiner though. Of course, that was a long time ago. The Monday Night Wars were still taking place.

It'll probably be "Stone Cold" Steve Austin. I remember reading some shit about him saying he'd be coming back to Raw soon. I hope it's a real big surprise whatever it is. If it was a returning Goldberg, I'd still mark out. I'd be happier if it were Brock. I want it to be some shit that just makes me go fucking bananas. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, it's probably ECW related. Bischoff said that he was going to have a funeral for ECW or some shit on the updated WWE.com Raw preview. So, maybe we'll get to see a bunch of people like Lance Storm and shit?

I'm curious who got second and third. We knew when this shit started that Bret was going to win. I anticipate the next tournament as well.

If it weren't for WGN, I'd never get to watch the Cubs play.

Tomorrow, on Raw, Edge is supposed to get a title match against Batista since Edge won the "Gold Rush" tournament. Last week we saw Lita turn on Kane and cost Kane the tournament. It could be argued that her turn even overshadowed Edge's win. We saw that Triple H wasn't on Raw since he left two weeks ago. We saw Batista help out Ric Flair. So, what's going to happen? I'm sure we've all read the rumors about Triple/Batista III at the next Raw PPV. We also know that the draft is coming up in a couple of weeks. So, could we see a title switch on Raw? I'm thinking that Edge might get himself DQ'ed against Batista by beating the slop out of him with a weapon. A chair, his briefcase, double-team beatdown with help from Lita, etc. Then he could use his "Money in the Bank" title shot immediately afterwards. It leaves the door open for a lot of shit though. The teased Flair face turn from last week. HHH coming back. Kane wanting revenge. A whole slew of shit could go down. I'm actually pretty interested in what could take place. So, even though this post has a shelf life, I thought that it could make for some good discussion. Matt Hardy drama aside, should Edge win the title? Has Batista been given enough time with the belt? Is Batista bombing? Will Batista lose so that HHH/Batista can happen in a non-title fashion? Will HHH come back? Will Edge even use his "Money in the Bank" contract? Where do Flair & Christian fit into all of this? There's a lot of ways that this could play out. Batista could retain. Edge could win. Edge could win but not get the title. HHH could return. Kane could do a run-in. Flair could turn face. I'm just curious what you guys thought about the whole situation. It's pretty much the most compelling thing that we have going on the Raw side.

Hulk Hogan