JerryvonKramer

I didn't they don't feel like they are together long enough for me. Kickuchi, Akiyama, etc.

Are we sure he's Undead Zombie Taker anymore? seems pretty regular guy to me from his last 8 matches Which is ironic because it's probably the closest he's ever looked to being an actual zombie.

Hase / Sasaki actually probably over some of the teams I've mentioned, that's a good call.

No. I need the fun of turning in a whimsical list as well. Rockers probably need to be higher. The last four spots would probably be Furnas and Kroffat, Islanders, Jumbo and Baba and genuinely Money Inc in a tribute to my childhood. Let the meaning of outrageous subjectivity be known.

Without really thinking about it: 1. The Funks 2. Kawada and Taue 3. Midnight Express (Eaton and Lane) 4. Rock n Roll Express 5. Arn and Tully 6. Midnight Express (Eaton and Condrey) 7. The Fantastics 8. The Fabulous Ones 9. The Fabulous Freebirds (Hayes and Gordy) 10. Ole and Arn Anderson 11. Jack and Jerry Brisco 12. Jay Youngblood and Ricky Steamboat 13. Mr Fuji and Mr Saito 14. Rick Martel and Tony Garea 15. The High Flyers 16. Ted Dibiase and Steve Williams 17. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu 18. The Steiner Brothers 19. The British Bulldogs 20. The Hart Foundation 21. The Rockers 22. Ted Dibiase and Matt Borne 23. Ted Dibiase and Stan Hansen 24. Ted Dibiase and Irwin R. Shyster 25. Ted Dibiase and Andre the Giant

Just to say, that obviously I have no clue who these guys are but ... Every time I see it I think for a moment it says "Motor City Madman", who might just be the worst wrestler ever to set foot in the ring.

Bear in mind I have the likes of Flair and Dibiase on 2/3 for psychology, it's a tough field. As in it isn't 1/3 in absolute terms but in GWE terms, whatever that means. I might watch a few UT matches.

You'd give him more? Who else would? And why? I am more inclined to adjust the rating than to definitively reasses anything at this point. Counting down the days till this thing is over.

HHH fears becoming "Ultimate John Ringley"

Goc, why does the answer have to be political hit though? Why can't it just be them getting cold feet after hearing the crowd reactions?

There are two reasons why I am so confident in this happening by the way: 1. They mention the number of titles almost every time you see Flair, Cena or HHH. 2. John Stewart. I will make the bet with anyone and might even think of a compensation prize if I lose:)

They would require hype packages and so on to build it up in the young fans' minds. Preferrably a package that shows the moment of Flair winning all 16 titles capped by him on the retirement Raw on everyone's shoulders. Run that for a month on Raw and the idea would get over. Then similar packages for HHH and Cena winning their titles. WHO WILL TIE FLAIR'S RECORD, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE WINNER. I think, if booked right, it could be a huge angle. And I also fully believe that they will run it. Vince, if you are reading, send the cheque to my Paypal. Thanks bud.

For fun: Vince McMahon Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4 Intangibles 8 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 1. Austin, 2. Triple H, 3. Shane, 4. Stephanie, 5. Shawn Michaels, 6. Ric Flair Variety = 6 opponents = 3 18 Jim Cornette Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4 Intangibles 8 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 1. Paul Heyman, 2. Cowabunga Variety = 2 opponents = 1 15

Bizarrely, I was actually thinking of the Skyscrapers when I gave him that

Between that, his little ECW appearance and his SMW appearance, Arn does a great line in unexpected cameos. Sadly no points for it though.

I honestly wish this WAS true, but it isn't backed up by the booking. This was exactly what that article I wrote was about. We have two examples of experienced bookers pushing "their man" come hell or high water in history: Muchnick pushing Dory Jr in 69 and Vince Sr pushing Backlund in 78. In the latter case, the crowd was clearly clamouring for Billy Graham and were completely ignored by Vince Sr. Like it or lump it, Backlund was going to be his guy. And in both cases, they were put over absolutely anyone who was anyone. Vince just hasn't pushed Roman in that way. It's been stop-start at best. He's traded wins with fucking Bray Wyatt during this supposed ace-push. There is no way at all that this is Vince pushing his guy and his guy alone at all costs. I don't buy it. I see him second-guessing himself constantly.

I guess we'd have to set a timeframe. HHH's 50th birthday?

I don't rate ANY of the matches particularly highly, but the criteria for variety is "memorable". Great matches is a separate metric. The Kane feud is still the most memorable thing Kane did in his career. I am thinking of that original debut run. Big Show is just that 08 No Mercy match Jimmy mentioned. Thing is, have a 25+ year career with a high profile, and you are likely to do well in that category. Variety rewards guys who did well in the business and had long careers. Lots of guys don't have careers that long. And yes, I'd add Diesel and Bret. They are fair shouts. I do not give him Flair in 02 or indeed in 92. Undertaker Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 9 Great matches 5 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Hulk Hogan, 2. Shawn Michaels, 3. Mankind, 4. Jeff Hardy, 5. Kurt Angle / Rock, 6. Brock, 7. Randy Orton, 8. Batista, 9. Edge, 10. Big Show, 11. HHH, 12. CM Punk, 13. Vince, 14. Kane, 15. Austin, 16. Diesel, 17. Bret Hart Variety = 17 opponents = 8 29 When you see me rank Taker several places ahead of Rick Rude on my list, Downend2005 is the man to blame All good fun though! To me that is the nature of "greatness", even if someone like me -- not a fan of Taker, outright hate HBK, etc. -- is forced to rate the guy against the criteria has to give the guy his due. I don't claim greater objectivity cos some might give Taker 10 for intangibles and 8+ for Great Matches, and might argue he had some years as a top 30 worker in the world, etc., but there is some baseline of a standard. It breaks my heart that Taker is going to be above Ron Garvin and Bruno Sammartino, but criteria is criteria. It's GWE not "JvK's fave guys".

For you Jimmy and to keep me honest: Undertaker Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 9 Great matches 5 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Hulk Hogan, 2. Shawn Michaels, 3. Mankind, 4. Jeff Hardy, 5. Kurt Angle / Rock, 6. Brock, 7. Randy Orton, 8. Batista, 9. Edge, 10. Big Show, 11. HHH, 12. CM Punk, 13. Vince, 14. Kane, 15. Austin Variety = 15 opponents = 7 28 Currently he'd rank with that score.

Would you like a sports man's bet on this Alucard?

^ And all of that is not to say that he doesn't have HHH in one ear and Kevin Dunn in the other. Maybe he does, but the cause of the issue isn't their scheming, it's Vince not quite knowing what to do.

I don't think the position I've outlined is "lol incompetence", I see Vince as the greatest promoter who ever lived by some distance. I see him struggling to know what to do when faced with what appears to be a big split in his audience. If there's one thing Vince has never excelled at it is subtlety so his ham-fisted attempts to move in any direction feel magnified. The truth of the matter is that, rightly or wrongly, Vince's forty odd years in the business has convinced him that guys like Bryan and Styles will never be draws beyond the hardcores. The man who brought us Rock n Wrestling and who put wrestling on MTV is never going to go with the option smart fans want. Ever. But those fans have become so vocal that they are wrecking his product so he's been trying to find ways to book for them as well as the kids. It hasn't worked and the Roman push is probably the worst and most botched thing in his entire career. But I think I understand what he's trying to do. It's not incompetence just difficulty with changing times, I'd make the analogy to Bill Watts in 1992 or George Scott in 1989. Some of the greatest minds in the business screw up sometimes.

Jimmy, I wasn't trying to excuse or explain away people liking Taker, i was asking more when did the general perception of him in the (smart) fandom change? I can't remember exactly when it was that I stopped watching, maybe 2006? But in the 4-5 years that I was completely out of it, by the time I came back the narratives around Taker seemed to have changed to me. Back in the day, I don't think he was considered a good worker, whereas now he does seem to be. And outside of PWO, on podcasts I listened to circa 2010-11, he was talked of as a ring general, locker room leader, etc. etc. I think even by our very own Place To Be boys, Scott and Justin (back before I knew either of them). I've seen all those matches you listed. Although many of them not since the day they happened. As for later Taker, If it happened on Raw in the past decade, then I won't have seen it.

Dude, I am British and used that exact formulation about Jim Breaks in this very thread.

Can't you see that there have been various changes of direction and cold feet on that idea though? Like in no way was he booked to be their new ace coming out of the last mania, I went through it in detail. Then Rollins and Cena both got injured, and Bryan retired, and so who could they go with? Back to Reigns. Remember how quickly Vince jettisoned Ultimate Warrior after 1990? And that was a guy who was OVER. The thing my mind always goes back to is the interview with Austin where he buried the damn millennials. He must have had Roman in mind. Who else was he talking about? I don't think Roman being booked as a total pussy is a mistake either. It's Vince asking him again and again "Roman, do you have a back bone? Are you going to question any of this shit?" It's a total mess for sure, but I do think everything is accountable without a conspiracy theory. Then again, I always think that on every single issue. On the whole, I think conspiracy theories give people too much credit. The truth is that life isn't as planned out as all that. Most people are just getting by doing their jobs, etc.