JerryvonKramer

This all seems to be getting a bit much, as well as a little personal. I didn't say that no people were taking things seriously and it is self-evident for those who have. Dylan asked why I might announce that I'm no longer going to take part instead of doing it quietly. It is closer to your stance on Colon or top lucha guys for WON HoF, than to the thing you ate referencing. As in, I did wish to voice my protest before stepping out. The nature of that protest still seems not to have been grasped. Various people calling me a dick think it's because I can't handle disagreement. That of not the case It comes down to what the project of trying to do. Matt D outlined in this thread what he thinks it is, and from responses it seems that's what people want it to be. For me that's more shallow, more swingy, more flavour of the month and ultimately more arbitrary and less meaningful than what I'd hoped this would be. When people don't have Lawler in their top 1000, that's not really a project I signed up for or really want to be a part of. I'm one guy, it means nothing. All it means is that the project is not what I wanted ot to be. I said my piece, I took flak and heat amd whatever. Polite request to draw line under it. We can all move on.

Now that everyone has had a chance to voice their condemnation and talk about how opinions and subjectivity really matter (which I don't recall disputing) can we put this to bed? I wanted Sight and Sound, what we're getting is a Smash Hits Poll. It is what it is. And to answer Dylan, yes I will stay out of GWE. Seems like everyone will be happier for it.

I suppose it comes down to what the poll is asking. It is not clearly for GWE purposes. I think these polls in general are pretty negative to the whole process, because it is not clear what they are asking. This is nothing about disagreeing with me. Hell, I probably prefer Rude's 92 to any single DiBiase year myself, I can understand that point of view. I do not mind people having different views. What I do mind is when placements are made on these lists willy nilly. And anyone whose critia is something like "who would I rather watch right now?" I don't think is treating this the same as some of the rest of us might be. I mean, in a way, it is like WON HoF, some people like Dylan care passionately and put in all sorts of work. Other guys just vote Sting because they've heard of him, or because he did them a favour once. In my view, those guys shouldn't be allowed to vote. GWE was always Steven's thing. He's made it clear that he wants everyone to submit, that's cool. It will be something very different from what I would have in mind for a project with the GWE title. It's not about subjectivity or objectivity, it's about what amounts to arbitrariness, and criteria too variable to be meaningful. If it's just a snapshot of "guys we like and want to watch at this point", that's great, but it's never how I've seen it and increasingly it feels like that's what people want from it. So fifteen years of a guys career can be swept aside with barely a moment's thought because Rick Rude was cool in 92 and you're a bit bored of seeing Ted. "Yeah but it's just wrestling chill out dude". I'm not even angry, it's just that I'd rather not be part of something that is ultimately not much different from asking people to rank their favourite flavours of soda. You like Mountain Dew, I like Fanta, this other guy likes the Lime Spritzer. Well great, but it's nothing to do with Greatest Soda Ever, it's just a list of faves. The very fact that people think this is just about me getting upset over disagreement almost demonstrates the point. I think the list beyond the top 20 is going to be almost random considering the way people make decisions between people in these polls. It's probably detracting from my enjoyment of watching things at this point, so I'd rather concentrate on reviewing matches and step back completely from all of these debates. I don't have the same temperament as Chad or Pete, find it harder to leave things alone. But I do think they have the right idea in general. I'm looking forward to more 90s All Japan, 80s New Japan, digging back in to Mid South and Memphis, 00s Japan, Regal, Funk, Styles and whatever else I'm set to review, but GWE is getting me down.

I'm not going to answer that, and think I am probably no longer going to submit. I do not think the process is being taken seriously enough and, in effect, am out. Will continue to review matches, but am not turning in a ballot.

Was just reading through this for some reason. I agreed with me, a lot, and disagreed with the 21 Rude voters, a lot. For GWE purposes, I would find it bonkers if anyone ranked Rude over Ted, to the point where I think I might be tempted to not submit a ballot any more if people were treating their lists in that manner. And I really love Rude.

For those that don't know, this is Dory Jr fact fans.

Oh I missed that somehow. Can see that more.

I'll post my reviews when I get back. Most of those.

When I stumbled on that 12,000 attendance show from 10/23/87 in Paris last night, I was interesting to see that that BRUTAL card was headlined by Harley Race and JYD. Andre was the special guest ref, and since they were in France, you wonder how many of the 12,000 were there purely to see Andre. But still it made me wonder about JYD as a drawing card in WWF. Going through results. JYD / Andre connection again, I don't see that gate being drawn by Greg vs. Tito. Here, I look and wonder what is drawing the gate. Hogan is not on the card, but still 18,000. Piper is there. Bruno is actually on this card, which might talk to the 18,000. But Andre / JYD match was the one announced ahead of time. Interesting to think about. Here's another big gate seemingly drawn by this Andre / JYD vs. Patera / Studd matchup. How much is Andre / Studd though, is up for question. Decent gate for this Cincinnati show, Hogan NOR Andre on the card. Piper was hot of course, but is Ivan Putski really drawing 8,000 in 1985? JYD got to take some credit for this one. Solid little house show in FLA headlined by JYD / Piper tags again. Another impressive Detroit gate. Wonder how much of it is JYD vs. Spoiler and how much Tito vs. Greg. The Spoiler was big in Detroit at one time, so the fact he was put in there with JYD is interesting. Sell out at the Boston Garden. No Hogan on the card. Again, Andre / Studd was a money feud, but JYD in main event. Same feud, big gate in LA. Again no Hogan on the card. Mr. T likely advertised? Another good gate. Okay, Andre / Studd, but JYD in feature matchup for IC title. No Hogan on card. Sell out in AWA land. Mad Dog gotta be helping out there. But JYD vs. Piper on card. Not as hot in St. Louis, but you gotta expect that. This idea that Detroit was dead not entirely true is it. Ha ha. Clearly Andre vs. Patera and JYD vs. Piper are featured, but Bruno is propping up this card. 17,000+ in Pittsburgh? That's Bruno all the way. Bruno country. Let's skip on one year to see how he was getting on in 1986 ... Would put this down to the prospect of Piper vs. Bruno to be honest. This is a pretty big gate, and JYD vs. Funk was a featured feud. More the sort of thing you could point to as JYD drawing. Typically though, in 1986, he's programmed under Hogan or under Bruno. The gates are strong, but in almost every case you could point to Hogan or Bruno. Here's an exception: Clearly JYD vs. Funk was the headline drawing match here. 13,000 not bad. No Hogan, no Bruno, no Andre. But look at what happens when Hogan is on the card: JYD vs. Funk can do 13,000, but Hogan on the card is worth +7,000. So at best you could say in 1986, JYD was a servicable fill-in or B-show babyface headline, but he wasn't going to draw the highest numbers. He could do 13,000, but not 19,000+. What about Nola? Well, 12,000 is okay. But how does that compare to peak Watts era JYD? This had Hogan on the card too. JYD vs. Funk didn't do more in Nola than it did in Philly. Here's a Philly card with no JYD and no Hogan ... So Savage vs. Tito with support from Piper vs. Orndorff did 19,000. Whereas JYD vs. Funk did only 13,000. Let's go to 1987. Mostly here he's headlining small B- or C-loop house shows of 2,500-5,000 attendence vs. Jake Roberts or Harley Race. On bigger shows, Hogan is mostly present. Here's a fairly typical card: We do get this no-Hogan MSG show though: You sense a bit of nervousness about lack of Hulk (or Andre) here, and look at how they load that main event. JYD AND Piper AND Steamboat AND Savage AND Race. They are making sure and triply sure. Points to a lack of faith in any one of them to draw the gate alone. So yeah, that's a start, people can look into it further, but my feeling is that JYD was a solid support main eventer during his WWF years, but not strong enough to draw houses alone. Basically dwarfed by Hogan, but some of the numbers on JYD-less and Hogan-less (and Bruno-less and Andre-less) cards show up that WWF could draw without any of those guys at the time. The 19,000 Philly show with Savage vs. Tito on top shows that. Savage and Piper both seem like "bigger draws" based on the attendences.

I liked the bit where Dave quipped "you just said 'Wrestling Culture'!"

They had another match in San Antonio that year for All Star, which is better. Took me ages to track down. It's a weird deal because Ted was there for a one-shot and comes in as "North American Champion", a belt made up entirely for that one event.

I don't think I can do 00s Japan real justice in time, but I do want to sit down with maybe the top 20-30 ranked matches of the Ditch project and see what that sparks. I have a real curiosity about late four pillars, and Akiyama. Does this dude have anything that would be on the Ditch list? While I'm at it, I am going to be taking a real look at Terry Funk in the 90s soon, and probably will be using Onita as a "benchmark" for it (for right or wrong). A lot of plates spinning but this and digging into Regal are in the pipeline soon. I have recently watched his most pimped matches: 04/16/94 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada 07/28/94 - Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa And honestly his performances there are so far and away better than anything he'd done before that it was pretty shocking to me. I think his candiacy rests like 90% on that particular run, like 8% on Mid-South stuff with DiBiase and co, and like 2% on tagging with Gordy. Interesting, cos I'm still waiting for that penny to drop with Lawler. Interesting also because I don't see this at all. I am just getting to Murdoch again in my Mid-South watching, and I was high on that stuff before too. But the comparison to Bruno here seems outrageous to me. I can honestly say that Murdoch was never even 10% of the overness that Bruno was. Just struck me as a strange claim to make, especially for a guy who played a heel so often. Don't think Murdoch had that sort of connection with his crowds, as demonstrated by the fact that Amarillo folded not long after he took over and he couldn't draw for toffee without the Funks around. That's in Murdoch's backyard. You cannot be serious! DiBiase completely and totally busts his ass to make Duggan look as good as he does in those matches. As a little exerecise you should count the sheer number of bumps in them. Count the number of times, he takes that bump, bounces back up to go in for a punch (or whatever), and then feeds Duggan again and again and again. You should note his timing. You should note how he is controlling the crowds and building them to the point where the Duggan comeback gets the maximum reaction possible. I am literally shocked and staggered that anyone could watch that stuff and say Ted is the second best worker. It's like ... totally bonkers to me, like you can't tell who the ring general is, and who is the guy being led by the nose. I'm not saying Duggan isn't good in those matches either, but come on.

Funk doc, the Paris match aired on Prime Time Wrestling on 1/18/88. I have that and can upload it if you really really want. Match goes 4 mins with Jones going over.

10/23/87 Paris show actually did 12,000. And was taped for TV. Which means Jones vs. Sika is probably on tape somewhere. Main event was Harley Race vs. JYD with Andre as special guest ref. Looks like they sent a skeleton crew for that little mini tour in 87.

Looking down the record, and he actually got a few wins over Sika that year, as well as over Fuji, Tiger Jeet Singh, Frenchy Martin and Jimmy Jack Funk. What does surprise me though are that two of the wins over Sika took place in ... France and Italy. One in Paris one in Milan. Had no idea WWF toured Europe in 1987

You know SD was kind of a bigger star than he's credited for. It's not that shocking to me that he'd get a win over Sika, even in 87.

Housekeeping New Japan d3 ****3/4 Andre the Giant vs. Killer Khan (4/1/82) ****1/2 Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (1/28/82) **** Tiger Mask vs. Bret Hart (2/5/82) ***3/4 Tiger Mask & Kengo Kimura vs. Bret Hart & Dynamite Kid (7/16/82) Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi (11/4/82) Tiger Mask vs. Steven Wright (4/1/82) Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Hiro Hamaguchi (9/24/82) ***1/2 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Dick Murdoch (7/23/82) *** Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Dick Murdoch (7/6/82) **1/2 Hulk Hogan vs. Abdullah the Butcher (5/26/82) Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (8/5/82) *1/2 Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger (5/26/82) Back to the Future time travel message to Phil Schneider, Will and the boys back in 2008: please, enough with the Tiger Mask already! Although looking at it, some decent matches here despite him being in them.

New Japan 3.4 Tiger Mask vs. Steven Wright (4/1/82) I want to study at the school where Dory Funk is the maths teacher, Verne is headmaster and Steven Wright teaches geography. This match is almost worked in the World of Sport style, and there are tons of swank counters and clever escapes. I think it's a real feather in Tiger Mask's cap (mask?) that's he was able to work a match like this with a guy like Wright working a completely different style. This is really an exhibition type match, but it has some really cool moments including that one sequence someone turned into a gif. Wright has some good European uppercuts and works with intensity. Has a range of interesting bumps and some good offense. Would love to see him vs. Breaks, but I don't think that match exists. One small thing about Tiger Mask is that he definitely wasn't an execution guy, pretty sloppy delivering various suplexes here. His gutwrench is horrible. Nonetheless, this is a pretty cool match well worth tracking down. ***3/4 New Japan 3.5 Andre the Giant vs. Killer Khan (4/1/82) We'd seen these two before in WWF. Khan had put Andre out of commission. Here Andre has a beard and looks mean as hell. Arnold Skaaland is with him. Andre's character work is absolutely superb. Khan is working as de facto babyface, which is a bit weird. It really is a bit of a shame that this wasn't the Andre who got to headline Mania 3. This match is just tremendous, basically perfect storytelling. Khan is outgunned and outsized against the giant until he gets an eye poke in and targets the leg, which is his equalizer throughout the match, but it's still not enough to stop the angry big man. Andre's performance is phenomenal here. This should be the text book entry for how to play the monster heel. Constantly jawing at and bullying the ref. Ensuring that Khan always felt the full impact of his size advantage. He busts out some big bombs here too. What I particular liked was the heel touches to the performance, he bailed to break momentum, he went over to strategise with Skaaland, he told fans to shut up, and when he won he felt exonerated and validated by it and wanted to shove it in the face of the fans. Awesome moment too when Dusty comes and gives him a big bottle of beer. One of Andre's very best. Don't want to sell Khan short here either, he still was basically a heel even though the crowd was on his side, but he worked a totally logical match. This is really the Andre show though. He is just so good. Wonder if Big Show has ever sat down and watched this. ****3/4 New Japan 3.6 Tiger Mask vs. Black Tiger (5/26/82) This is like an episode of Thundercats. Remember the blue Tygara? Black Tiger is, of course, Mark Rocco. I really didn't care for this. Not my thing. A lot of flash and not a lot of substance. I will say that Rocco's execution is very good, and he was busting out some pretty innovative offense with some big and wild bumps. I'm really done with Tiger Mask at this point though. No interest in stuff like this to be honest. Rocco vs. Steven Wright would be something I'd want to watch though. *1/2 New Japan 3.7 Hulk Hogan vs. Abdullah the Butcher (5/26/82) Now this seems an unusual match up and intriguing. Vince never brought Abby in as a Hogan opponent, even though he'd seem a natural one. Hogan is pretty over with this Japanese crowd. Pretty epic glade job by Hogan here and even a suplex from Abby. Other than that, your typical Abby match really, spliced with your typical Hogan match, but more typical Abby including the double CO. Fun. **1/2 New Japan 3.8 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Dick Murdoch (7/6/82) Murdoch punts the flowers into the crowd and manhandles the ref at the start of this, which is pretty funny. This match featured Dick Murdoch, blood, and a brainbuster outside the ring. It has Good Ol Will from Texas written all over it. So why wasn't it as exciting as all that? Too much time on the mat, simple as that. Highlight of this was Fujinami's explosive tope onto the outside which somehow results in Murdoch bleeding. Solid enough, especially after they broke out some bombs, but still have yet to really see what all the fuss is about with Dick in Japan. Post-match Murdoch destroyed the trophy. If anything pre- and post- match were better than the match. *** New Japan 3.9 Tiger Mask & Kengo Kimura vs. Bret Hart & Dynamite Kid (7/16/82) This is mildly interesting, to see Bret and DK tag here in 82. This is where Bret claims that he and DK invented the modern style, thereby exposing his own ignorance. This is pretty hot to start. Bombs flying everywhere, well executed. Cool gutwrenches, suplexes, backbreakers etc. Then we get a tombstone outside which Tiger Mask basically treats like a bodyslam. Suplex back in and barely a two count. Tiger Mask is pretty annoying. DK runs through his catalogue of state of the art offense here, including a Tiger Suplex. Match is at its best when Kimura is in the ring as FIP, because some of the Tiger Mask shit is egregious. Honestly I absolutely loved Hart and DK on offense here, beating the crap out of Kimura, great execution, cool moves, decent logical pace, moves had real impact. Match took a nose dive every time Tiger Mask came in, no selling, doing his flashy shit, and taking any semblance of reality out of the match. He hits a terrible looking piledriver at one point too that wasn't just ugly but dangerous. Tiger Mask is basically awful. Hart and DK team looked fantastic. And I think it's a bit of a shame that DK was married to Tiger Mask during this run, because I can imagine him having an amazing match with the right opponent. Mechanically as sound as anyone who ever set foot in the ring. ***3/4 New Japan 3.10 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Dick Murdoch (7/23/82) Very heated start to this but then, naturally, they take things to the mat. A lot of arm work. Murdoch does a weird thing of slapping his own hand with pain. This is one of those things Will might point to as a neat little detail that keeps things engaging, but I think it's just a bit strange. Murdoch matches have a habit of grinding to a total standstill like this, he's working an older style. Does some nice little punches while applying a leglock here, but the match has virtually no movement at all by this point. Things pick up outside, and then back in they escalate the throws and strikes before moving into an abdominal stretch sequence which sends both men outside again. Cool running power slam by Murdoch back in the ring, but then they go back outside where he tries a brainbuster but it gets reversed and he eats the post. Fujinami gets the count out win. Again, solid but nothing to go out of your way to see. Marginally better than first bout, lack of blood notwithstanding. ***1/2 New Japan 3.11 Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (8/5/82) Here we go again. Got to the point where all I want is for DK to kick Tiger Mask's head in. Hate the guy. This is a famous match up and when you see some of the bombs fly, you can understand why, but Tiger Mask is so damn sloppy and botchy. Horrible suplex to outside. Horrible side salto. And then they hit the deck for five minutes. If ever a match didn't need matwork, this is one. Later, DK hits a tombstone and his diving headbutt and moments later Tiger Mask is doing a flying tope over the top rope and a shoulder breaker as if nothing has happened at all. He's the definition of go go go, but isn't even good at execution, bumping, selling or any of those those core mechanics. Continue to enjoy DK a good bit. Frustrating match up. **1/2 New Japan 3.12 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Hiro Hamaguchi (9/24/82) Animal Hamaguchi, classic old school Japanese wrestler. This was a really enjoyable bout with solid action, good matwork, building up to some decent throws. It's the sort of match that shows that Fujinami really could do it all, any style, any opponent. I thought this was more engaging than the Murdoch matches. Just such solid work. I've said that Harley Race is a real contender for best in the world for 1982, Fujinami is definitely a contender too. ***3/4 New Japan 3.13 Tiger Mask vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi (11/4/82) This is red pants Kobayashi who would crop up later in the 80s in All Japan. I pretty much want to go back in time and kill Tiger Mask and then laugh in the faces of all the crying Japanese kids. Horrible worker. Would be impressed if Red Pants can get anything out of him. He brings the ground game here which gives this match a real sense of strategy missing in, well, practically every other Tiger Mask match. All the strategy -- and therefore psychology -- is coming from Kobayashi though. He wants to keep Tiger Mask from doing his shit and so we get a sense of build towards said shit. So the flying crossbody or arm drag exchange sequence feel like they have actual impact because Tiger Mask has had to work to get to them. He also tries to rip the mask off. And has some really stiff strikes. I like Red Pants. I feel like in another time and place he would have had a great match with Lo Ki. PERFECTPLEX! Also an awesome moment where Tiger Mask does a 619 thing and then jumps over the top rope only for Kobayashi to slam him into the floor. Count out finish, but Kobayshi lays out some young boys, and things get really really heated post match. Red Pants is awesome! This felt like the best match up for Tiger Mask on the set to this point, if not the best match. Really heated, well worked, and well laid out match. ***3/4

Arn vs. Windham from 92 is a great great sleeper match. I had it ****3/4 Aka that one I watched by mistake on WTBBP, where Chad reviewed a completely different match.

^ As I understand it, the run, on whatever station it was, was only 3 weeks in the summer of 79.

No, not on HBO. Some MSG cards did, but not those Atlantic City live broadcasts. It would have been a local NY / NJ station.

This obscure and difficult-to-find match has attained a near-legendary status on Titans. I loved it, some other people hated it. It is notable for a number of reasons: 1. It took place at the Steel Pier in Atlantic City, which is a completely unique setting for this time frame. It's really rare to see footage from outside of the TV (Allentown / Hamberg), MSG, Philly or sometimes Boston or the Cap Centre. I have read around about this, and in the Summer of 79, the WWF ran a series of live broadcasts from Atlantic City, which aired on a local cable channel (one guy says a station called "Sportschannel") at 8pm or 9pm in 79. The reasons for the existence of this footage -- as in why they did this, why live as opposed to a taping, and why for only that couple of weeks -- are ... mysterious. 2. Gorilla Monsoon is on commentary, which is also really unusual for this time. I believe it is actually his DEBUT as an announcer. Vince fronted the TV typically. Monsoon would not start on MSG and Philly shows until 1982. So it really is random that he is in the booth here in 79. Monsoon calls it "Championship Wrestling", but as far as we know this did not air on that show. It may have been a pilot or trial run for a new live show. 3. This is a chance to see Andre in a house show environment go long against lesser opponents. It is about 28 minutes. He plays FIP at times for Scicluna and Valiant(!!), which is nuts. 4. Also a chance to see Baron Scicluna outside of a 5-minute MSG opener squash, and he actually gets some time in on offense. I don't think he nor Jerry Valiant (underrated) have many matches that go this long on tape. 5. Early team up for the Mega Bucks! I have uploaded it on discrete request. This is a bit of a "gem" in my view. I mean even if you don't like the match (which I do), there's so much other unusual stuff about this match that it is worth a look. I love the Steel Pier setting, your "smoky arena" right there.

Think it's so cool all the matches you got to see live.

My main point was that Japanese crowd dynamics are a bit like that Wimbledon crowd. At least that's how it comes across to me. Will wait for jdw or whoever to come along and tell me someone thought that in 1993 and how it has since been proven to be wrong.

Incidentally, I don't think dislike of Williams sisters is race related, but because British (or at least that middle-class Wimbledon crowd) perceive them having a bad attitude, whereas someone like Roger is nice and humble, and gracious. Even Andy Murray isn't over with everyone because of attitude (and Scottishness). Also with Williams sisters, especially Serena, just a bit too dominant, Federer always had good competition. Love of the underdog is strong, so the crowd usually go against Serena. No passive racism at all imo. Like none. I know you were joking, but still.