JerryvonKramer

If you go onto Kayfabe memories, and visit any of the boards there, you'll see plenty of old-time fans of GCW, Mid-South and WWF sharing memories of angles that had Ted at the centre of them. Whether its taking the multiple piledrivers from the Freebirds or the brainbuster on the concrete from Murdoch, or smashing Duggan's car in with a baseball bat, or the basket ball skit or any of the vignettes from WWF. Go and watch him in his cape buying the Million Dollar Belt. Or paying off the attendants in the swimming pool. They were all "memorable" and are enshrined in the memories of many fans from the era. I think it's fair to say that he benefitted in his career from tremendous booking, he had the genius of Watts behind him in Mid-South, and the genius of Vince behind him in WWF. And in All Japan, Baba always booked him strongly and treated him like a big deal. Ted's key asset as a worker is that he could do exactly the job required of him by the booker for any given situation. Ask him to bleed and he'll bleed you buckets. Ask him to put someone over and he'll make them look like a million bucks. Ask him to be a dick and he'll be a dick. Ask him to be Stan Hansen Jr. and he'll be Stan Hansen Jr. Ask him to put over an angle and you can be sure the angle gets over. He's a booker's dream and likely a number #1-4 draft pick for any booker active during the 80s for that reason. You don't take him over Savage, Hogan or Flair if you're a booker, but you probably take him over almost everyone else. That's why in 1987 he was the cherry pick from UWF. Anyone who thinks a booker would take a Greg Valentine over Ted even in 1983 is in dream world. If you lined up all of the promotors of the period and ask them "Who would you rather take?", it's Ted every day and if people reading this are honest with themselves they know it. Ted was a good promo, not a stellar one, but really solid. Watch his promos from Mid-South in the feud with Duggan, or any of the ratpack stuff really. Watch his promos in the Jake feud in WWF. Watch his promos in the feuds with Savage (probably his very best is from this episode of Primetime from 88 -- probably on the Network), Dusty or Virgil. In the ring, he also played his character. I don't get the talking point from brainfollower that his character work doesn't carry into the matches. As a babyface he was fired up and -- at least I thought -- stood out a good bit in 1979 as working about twice as hard and fast as anyone else in WWF (which isn't saying much, ha ha), I thought he stood out as much as Rick Martel has in 1981, although Patterson was the best worker around. As a heel in Mid-South, he works even more aggressively and does have a touch of arrogance in his character. I don't think you can pick up a WWF Ted match and a Mid-South Ted match (and an AJ Ted match) and say he worked identically in all of them. In WWF, the way he'd walk the aisle was basically perfect for the character. He was smug, self-satisifed, often talking to himself. He'd stop during heat sequences at times to do his money taunt. But he worked more stooge-y because (surprise, surprise) that's exactly what the booker required of him. I totally disagree with the idea that Ted wasn't memorable. But I do get what OJ is saying. And I think it's true that Ted was sort of chameleon-like and so might lack things that are distinctively "his" (although we can point to moves: the trademark 360 neck bump, the missed double axe-handle and front flip bump, the scoop powerslam, the fist drop -- those are all trademark spots of his that are distinctive and unmistakable). He was also a bit workman-like. If I was to draw an analogy if Ted's in Animal Farm he's not any of the leaders, but Boxer -- the loyal workhorse. But when you put it all together, how many guys had a career like he had? Sometimes people get ahead simply by taking instruction and being excellent at their job, and that was Ted. He wasn't an innovator really, he wasn't an ideas man, and he wasn't someone who is going to deviate from the booker's script, but he was a top worker at the top of the game at a time when there were lots of very talented people around. That means he's not a tier 1 guy, but he's solidly in tier 2. Rude just didn't have that career or ability to be exactly what the situation required of him, though I agree his peak in 92 is one of the all-time great years of any worker. Anyway, that's the end of my passionate argument. I don't really want to talk about Ted, I think he's massively over-indexed in terms of the attention he gets on this board. And C.S. might think I'm being egocentric, but I don't think it's a coincidence that there are like 4 or 5 Ted microscope threads and I happen to post on this site. I don't think those threads are made if I'm not here. People like to argue with me, I think they get a kick out of my irriration or something, I dunno. But I've made this post now and if anyone wants to discuss Ted again with me I can always point them back here, like I point people back to the Flair arguments in the Flair vs. Bret thread. I've said it all on audio before, and now I've said it on here. End.

Maybe someone else can shed more light on this, but as I recall from researching for the Wrestler Snapshot On Ted I did with Steven and Will, DiBIase wasn't actually working in Mid-South at the time of those Magnum matches. He spent all of 84 in GCW and back and forth All Japan. Seems like he came in for a one shot to work those two matches, and it looks like a favour to Watts to help put Magnum over. Not that it particularly changes anything, but the context for the matchwas is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of context, I don't think Ted was in any storylines or anything, because he wasn't around. Just a weird one shot. Mid-Atlantic Gateway has all his dates. So those matches are a lot more important in Magnum's career than they are in Ted's, where they are literally just "a night". That is, unless anyone has any different info on this that I'm not aware of (eg. What Watts was saying on the TV at the the time). He also worked a random one shot in 85 with Chavo for South West at the Battle of the Alamo, where he was for the second time in his career, the holder of a fictional North American title. This is also how he debuted in WWF in 79.

Any other examples people want to shoot down because of various injuries?

Parties - with MDM, for intensity, you have to watch him in spots where he has to bring aggression to see the intensity and fire from him after 1988. There are times when he goes into a mode of "right, fuck this, I'm going to get the job done here". He does it with Bret in that stretch of the Survior Series match. He does it against Dusty and Dustin just before the Virgil face turn at Rumble 91. He does it, to an extent, in the Surivor Series showdown match in 91 against Virgil. He does it in the little spot after the Jake match when he beats up Bossman at WM6. He does it in the heel beatdown on Beefcake on that episode of Raw in 93. He does it vs. jobbers. He basically does it any time he has license from the office to be aggressive. I haven't done a wholescale review of MDM MSG / Philly matches though, so I need to take a deeper look in all honesty. My focus for the past few years has not been WWF late 80s / early 90s.

Incidentally, I didn't know Rude was broken down in 93. I knew he got injured and couldn't come back, but I didn't know he was carrying the injury at the time of the Flair match. His whole 93 is pretty disappointing for me, especially after he shaves the tache off. I figured Rude in 93 was close to peak, but if he was injured fair enough.

Was it a weak argument or just a weak example?

Since you voted for Ted, Pete, why are you bothering to argue with me? Pick holes in those arguing for Rude and leave me alone.

Phil, just kidding by the way. I haven't seen every Mid South Ted match. I may seek some out just to see if I agree with your assessment.

You also think Jumbo is the Japanese Terry Taylor though, which suggests we probably aren't going to agree on much. Parties, why do you think he lacks intensity? I don't get that criticism. Watch him vs Pat Patterson in 79, lacking intensity?

Not entirely sure yet, but more than likely top 50. Aspects of his work that people (apart from me) never talk about are his intensity when on offense. This comes through most strongly in his early babyface years, but it carries right through Mid-South and into the WWF years. He's underrated as an offensive worker. In feature matches in the WWF, heel heat sequences were often truncated, but when he was able to run through it he had a beautiful heat sequence. Suplex and a beauty, piledriver, best scoop powerslam in the business. His punches are underrated, he was taught by The Funks and came through Amarillo as a youngster, and it shows. His punches are excellent. He's smooth almost on the same level as a Barry Windham. His selling and bumping are really good to the point where he was a viable and realistic prospect for NWA Champ. He does a lot of things extremely well, which are sold short for whatever reason. But hey, people have different opinions on things. I need to finish re-watching the entire Mid-South set before making a final call. Need to see his matches with Dick Murdoch and the Steve Williams tag run with a fresh pair of eyes.

True, he'd also be sure to give the super villains a good heat sequence so he could make his comeback in the second episode: Tune in next time. That's great work. Batman is a much better babyface than Roadrunner or He-Man. But it's still true he didn't lay down very often to eat the pinfall.

It's not just Road Runner, goc. Skeletor put over He-Man 130 times and the job was never returned once. Batman has done like two jobs in 80 years (one to Bane in 93, usually allows Joker to get his heat back).

Rude vs. Jake at WM4 anyone? Rude vs. Chono? As great as Rude was in 92, he certainly knew how to stink out the joint when he wanted to. His match with Flair is disappointing too. Ted has some good matches with Flair. I think Ted is held to real and impossible scrutiny whereas a guy like Rude isn't. Why? Maybe it's because people like to wind me up. Maybe it's because Meltzer pimped him as a "best in the US" calibre worker for a decade. Maybe it's because lots of workers in the industry cite him as an all-timer. Maybe it's because he's one of the lucky guys that WWE like to make a big deal of in their version of history. Or all of the above. But I don't see people nitpicking with Rude like they do with Ted, and Rude's lows are so much lower. NB. I really love Rude by the way, and don't really want to be seen to be running him down. He'll do pretty well in my GWE.

Take a look at this again Dylan: https://sites.google.com/site/chrisharrington/dvdvr_midsouth_1980s_midsouth_results Those are the results of DVDR's Mid-South 80s set. Can you tell me which other workers of the 80s that finished #1 on their respective sets you don't consider key? Any which way you slice it, he was #1 performer for that set and promotion. So, you're saying Mid-South just wasn't "key"?

As I've mentioned on WTBBP, Rude in 92 is one of my very favourite wrestlers. And peak vs. peak this conversation is interesting. But pre- and post-peak I think Ted absolutely destroys Rude and then some, so much so that they aren't in the same ballpark. Ted in 1978-9 is ALOT better than Rude in 87-8. 80s babyface Ted in GCW and Mid-South pre-heel turn did a lot more memorable things than Rude ever did before 89. Rude in 88 is actively bad. I don't think Ted is actively bad even at the very end of his career where people are pointing to matches with the Steiners. Million Dollar Man run in WWF has things no one seems to want to give Ted for any more -- like getting a total nothing like Virgil over as one of the hottest babyfaces in 1991, like the Savage matches in 88, like his Hogan matches (which are better than Hogan vs. Rude), like his performance in the 1990 Rumble or in the 1990 Survivor Series. His matches against Bret Hart. His match against Shawn Michaels. His general ability to bump, sell, work the crowd, execute moves, and so on (which are taken for granted). All of these things are "post peak" for Ted. And then his All-Japan matches, where he is part of many more ***1/2-****1/2 affairs than Rude would ever be tagging with Manny in a similar work-rate heavy environment. People are making a couple of good matches with the Ultimate Warrior in 89 and Rude's banner year in 1992 do an AWFUL lot of work here. And people seem willing to overlook the long chinlock spots that dog some Rude matches even in 92. I don't like the way Ted is so casually dismissed by some. I can no longer work out if people are trolling me, or just willfully trying to deny the greatness of one of the key workers of the 80s. I'm watching some prime Ted in a bit because I'm going to review some more 80s Mid-South.

Incidentally, I think DiBiase was more "talented" than Rude, but that's a topic for another thread.

This is all true I guess, but it also assumes that LA and New York -- the two biggest media centres in the US -- don't also find better TV. But of course then we're one step away from things going national and there being an all-out war, etc. Perhaps there's no avoiding it.

Yes, Parties, but you have to imagine what each of those guys careers would have been like if they were all working in the different territories. DiBiase is a possibility, sure, but he'd have remained a Watts guy, and Mid-South never had the best relationship with NWA. Piper probably would have shuttled between New York, San Francisco, LA, Portland (he loved Don Owen), GCW and Crockett. In fact, he's a possibility, depending on how over he got. Although his working style doesn't exactly smack of NWA champ. Savage is an interesting one to consider, but since he was the son of an outlaw, that's a long journey to make to become NWA champ. Rude possibly, depending on where his career went. He would have had to have tone down the gimmick a bit to be champ, but he's viable. Rude was known as a bit of a hard-ass in the business though, and might have had too much heat with various promoters. He'd have had to have an internal-NWA advocate. I think Rude would have been powerful politically if he'd ever have gotten over as champ, he had that personality. Hennig I reckon stays in AWA. Luger I don't see having enough respect from the boys or getting Flair's blessing to become champ. Vader maybe, although it would be a real change of direction for the title.

Point is as NWA champ, Bret would need to be that heel. Not 50-50, but 80-20 or lower ratio for offense. That is if he works like Race or Flair. Can you think of any times when Bret allowed his opponents 80% offense? If Bret is NWA Champ it'd be a change of booking philosophy back to Dory Jr. days.

This thread is worth revisiting, I'd love to hear some takes from some of the newer faces around here.

Enjoying this one a good bit. Marty, on the boring WWF draws -- like that Orton vs. Billy Jack match you mention. I think you've got to remember the stories all the old timers tell about going out, having a great match when they were on second and a Verne or Eddie Graham or Bill Watts chewing their ass and telling them "that's the worst match I've ever seen", because it wasn't appropriate to the card placement and upstaged the main event. I'm not saying that to defend Bob Orton Jr in this instance per se, but the mindset was not to have the best match on the card if you were down in the undercard eating up time. Titans heros Baron Scicluna and, of course, Dom made a living out of the 10-15 minute undercard match that sits there and literally does nothing while people go and buy hotdogs. More or less a bad match "by design". This is why I've come to think Dom and The Baron transcend rating systems.. It's a product of the era and mindset. And so in a sense, I think, is more forgiveable than something like Rude vs. Jake at WM4, which is a match from a featured feud on their main PPV.

Brain, I was thinking more in terms of how he was booked, presented and positioned as opposed to how he worked the matches. I'd agree that Bret always gave a lot more to his opponents than Bob, even if his strongest suit was offense. That said, just listening to Marty's analysis of why he prefers Bulldogs vs. Dream Team to Bulldogs vs. Hart Foundation, and it comes down to Bret not really letting the Bulldogs get their shit in -- so his working style might be an issue as NWA champ. Flair, Race and Terry Funk would allow their opponents to get ALL their shit in, most of the time.

I'm still wondering where exactly the suplex-heavy style that the Bulldogs and Choshu and co were doing in the 80s comes from. 70s Japanese wrestling much like US and British wrestling in that decade is largely mat-based. I honestly think Harley has a lot to do with it everywhere, and maybe Billy Robinson, then Flair. Bulldogs weren't getting their bomb-throwing style from Inoki or Baba. Does anyone know what the work style was like on Calgary in the 70s? Because Bret is a big offensive worker too.

I am sure Pillman could have adapted his style to work as NWA champ. He had the tools. Whoever became NWA champ post-Flair would have also had to have had Flair's blessing too, which is a box Windham ticks. Barry would have had support from Crockett and Florida offices -- and The Funks went back with his old man too. Do you think he played NWA champ or did he play Bob Backlund?

Two reasons I don't see Bret as champ are 1) because Stu didn't have that sort of stroke in the NWA and 2) he was primarily an offensive worker and they'd have been looking for a Harley / Flair type who could sell and sell. I don't see Bret overcoming both barriers. Champ after Flair is probably Windham. I can even see Pillman ahead of Bret.