JerryvonKramer

I think ironically though, and this is where It might help if Flair had more "book smarts" as Meltzer might say, The guys Bret was painting as tired and working an old style, like Harley (and by implication Flair), probably did more to change the style of work in the US than Bret or the Bulldogs ever did. I've written at length before about the transition from mat-based wrestling to the heavy bumping, spot and action orientated style that Race and Flair both worked. Ray Stevens would be the innovator, Race and Flair the popularisers. Flair knows this. He talks about it whenever he mentions Johnny Valentine not running the ropes or Dory sitting in a 45-minute headlock. But he just can't put it together and form a coherent argument because that's not the sort of guy he is. I wish I'd been sitting in there with them. Ha ha. ------ Untreated, but it's interesting that Flair thinks he couldn't do anything with Jumbo because I thought they had great matches together. Maybe it's because they were technical affairs and Flair doesn't like that style.

There's different ways of painting it. "Spineless corporate man" or "company man" is one way to paint it. "Loyal soldier who'd go to the wall for you" puts a different inflection on it. Ted came up in tough places like Amarillo and endured working for Watts, the hardest of task masters. And then Vince, also a very demanding boss. Rude couldn't have taken it, and didn't. So who is the more spineless? Who can you count on when the chips are down and the shit hits the fan? There's two ways of looking at that.

Cordial is the right word. Did you like the bit when Flair reacted to Bret's rant about Hogan by reiterating that he's happy that the two of them are now friends. There were some awkward as hell moments right the way through. The one interesting thing about Bret talking about DK was his implication that Calgary was a place where they were innovating offence. I brought this up in the Tag Teams Back Again thread, when they were discussing the Bulldogs. I was a bit disappointed Flair didn't bring his point up about not being an offensive worker, he talked about that with Angle and on that Terry Funk joint shoot (specifically in relation to Bret), but here it seems like all he wanted to do was push the narrative of them having made up.

It did seem like Flair was completely oblivious to the Austin - Bret match.

He did seem to imply that Dynamite Kid was a better wrestler than Flair though. As in "more advanced" or something. That was the implication.

Might be an idea to split this stuff off.

On Flair's show, Meltzer didn't seem as down on watching old stuff as has been made out in the past.

One thing they did say is that he's better on house shows than on TV.

One last rendition of "Get Back" with the entire roster on backup vocals.

So, I had an external HDD die which had both the game and all its files on it, plus over about 1TB of wrestling, and a whole lot of other stuff. So that's it. Hope people enjoyed it while it lasted.

Can you run me through what they are? Bret and Flair seemed to think he has "his character down" and a star presence.

I don't really like that deadly seriousness and don't trust anyone who takes themselves that seriously. I mean, Flair is the legit GOAT and can still have a laugh or even put himself down on occassion, Bret just can't do it. I also got the impression that Bret kind of looks down on Flair. That's so ridiculous to me that it almost makes Bret a heel to me, like an IRL heel. Horses for courses, though, I just don't like the guy.

They actually came to us to see if it was okay as a courtesy. Steven - I forgot you did it too, I thought there were some other guys. Was it OTR or Shake the Ropes? One of those two, guys I don't really know. I thought it was nice that they asked and gave credit when they didn't have to -- appealed to the academic in me, I like citations. I don't know of any other shows doing it in podcast form before us. Naturally, I had no idea about Yohe and co doing it in 93. I'd be interested to see those drafts.

I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but why?No sense of humour, genuinely arrogant, generally seems a bit unpleasant. Not a very likable guy imo.

I've always found Bret a difficult guy to like.

Wow Bret totally buried Kevin Sullivan.

Conrad is a much better second than Alice.

Well he's got Ric Flair's vote.

Looks like it is already out Mick!

Wow, his third guest is his arch-nemesis Bret Hart!

I don't know if you listen to podcasts Elliot, but this is an idea I had before and we actually did a draft here: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft/ Year was 1990, everyone was a free agent. First show was the draft, second booking the rosters. Rules and talent pool here: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft-rules/ I believe another podcast did this concept again (with our permission to copy the idea) only the date was later. It might have been long enough that we do another one soon. Will have to see how much interest there is around it.

El-P, since getting the Network I think I've watched a grand total of about 2 shows (Rumble, Mania). I am either going to cancel or seriously put some effort in to make it value, because currently it's money for nothing. Since I'm listening to Sullivan's podcast, I was thinking about maybe starting the Nitros from 1995. Would you recommend doing it?

I don't really like him as a worker, but I love listening to him talk. Have been working through Helluvadeal. Guy has a great mind for the business, and an accent I dig. There's a Sullivan "The Devil in Florida" comp that has been around for years that I've never watched, but I suspect any case to be made for him is going to come from that. Seems more of a out-of-ring character guy than a worker though.

Is there really someone called "Trauma II"! Ha ha!!

If you go onto Kayfabe memories, and visit any of the boards there, you'll see plenty of old-time fans of GCW, Mid-South and WWF sharing memories of angles that had Ted at the centre of them. Whether its taking the multiple piledrivers from the Freebirds or the brainbuster on the concrete from Murdoch, or smashing Duggan's car in with a baseball bat, or the basket ball skit or any of the vignettes from WWF. Go and watch him in his cape buying the Million Dollar Belt. Or paying off the attendants in the swimming pool. They were all "memorable" and are enshrined in the memories of many fans from the era. I think it's fair to say that he benefitted in his career from tremendous booking, he had the genius of Watts behind him in Mid-South, and the genius of Vince behind him in WWF. And in All Japan, Baba always booked him strongly and treated him like a big deal. Ted's key asset as a worker is that he could do exactly the job required of him by the booker for any given situation. Ask him to bleed and he'll bleed you buckets. Ask him to put someone over and he'll make them look like a million bucks. Ask him to be a dick and he'll be a dick. Ask him to be Stan Hansen Jr. and he'll be Stan Hansen Jr. Ask him to put over an angle and you can be sure the angle gets over. He's a booker's dream and likely a number #1-4 draft pick for any booker active during the 80s for that reason. You don't take him over Savage, Hogan or Flair if you're a booker, but you probably take him over almost everyone else. That's why in 1987 he was the cherry pick from UWF. Anyone who thinks a booker would take a Greg Valentine over Ted even in 1983 is in dream world. If you lined up all of the promotors of the period and ask them "Who would you rather take?", it's Ted every day and if people reading this are honest with themselves they know it. Ted was a good promo, not a stellar one, but really solid. Watch his promos from Mid-South in the feud with Duggan, or any of the ratpack stuff really. Watch his promos in the Jake feud in WWF. Watch his promos in the feuds with Savage (probably his very best is from this episode of Primetime from 88 -- probably on the Network), Dusty or Virgil. In the ring, he also played his character. I don't get the talking point from brainfollower that his character work doesn't carry into the matches. As a babyface he was fired up and -- at least I thought -- stood out a good bit in 1979 as working about twice as hard and fast as anyone else in WWF (which isn't saying much, ha ha), I thought he stood out as much as Rick Martel has in 1981, although Patterson was the best worker around. As a heel in Mid-South, he works even more aggressively and does have a touch of arrogance in his character. I don't think you can pick up a WWF Ted match and a Mid-South Ted match (and an AJ Ted match) and say he worked identically in all of them. In WWF, the way he'd walk the aisle was basically perfect for the character. He was smug, self-satisifed, often talking to himself. He'd stop during heat sequences at times to do his money taunt. But he worked more stooge-y because (surprise, surprise) that's exactly what the booker required of him. I totally disagree with the idea that Ted wasn't memorable. But I do get what OJ is saying. And I think it's true that Ted was sort of chameleon-like and so might lack things that are distinctively "his" (although we can point to moves: the trademark 360 neck bump, the missed double axe-handle and front flip bump, the scoop powerslam, the fist drop -- those are all trademark spots of his that are distinctive and unmistakable). He was also a bit workman-like. If I was to draw an analogy if Ted's in Animal Farm he's not any of the leaders, but Boxer -- the loyal workhorse. But when you put it all together, how many guys had a career like he had? Sometimes people get ahead simply by taking instruction and being excellent at their job, and that was Ted. He wasn't an innovator really, he wasn't an ideas man, and he wasn't someone who is going to deviate from the booker's script, but he was a top worker at the top of the game at a time when there were lots of very talented people around. That means he's not a tier 1 guy, but he's solidly in tier 2. Rude just didn't have that career or ability to be exactly what the situation required of him, though I agree his peak in 92 is one of the all-time great years of any worker. Anyway, that's the end of my passionate argument. I don't really want to talk about Ted, I think he's massively over-indexed in terms of the attention he gets on this board. And C.S. might think I'm being egocentric, but I don't think it's a coincidence that there are like 4 or 5 Ted microscope threads and I happen to post on this site. I don't think those threads are made if I'm not here. People like to argue with me, I think they get a kick out of my irriration or something, I dunno. But I've made this post now and if anyone wants to discuss Ted again with me I can always point them back here, like I point people back to the Flair arguments in the Flair vs. Bret thread. I've said it all on audio before, and now I've said it on here. End.