JerryvonKramer

Bruno was hardly Sid or The Crusher. He also connected with the crowd in an amazing way and had the ability to work almost any variety of opponent. I don't think a poor worker could have been champion for that long. Bruno was probably a better worker than Hogan was. He just wasn't a very good match up for Giant Baba.

Video game wrestler for a plastic era.

I think he has literally the worst character work of all time, like rock bottom level. And this underpins the weaknesses you outline. Note, I'm talking character work, not necessarily charisma. He's not like Dean Malenko where he has zero charisma, it's something else. I actually think Randy Orton might have been a good worker in any other generation, but being in the scripted, fake, awful current WWE extentuates that one flaw tenfold. If he'd been around even 6 years earlier, we might be a having a totally different conversation.

My reasoning Loss is that Flair was the number 2 draw in the US for the 80s while also being a GOAT-level worker, whereas Hogan was number 1 draw while being nowhere near that level of worker. When you mediate one against the other, Flair comes out on top. Then in the 90s, when Hogan is still a top draw and Flair drops down a bit, guys like Bret, Shawn etc. are nowhere near the level of draw Flair was, so it's Hogan. Then it's Austin for a bit, then it's Rock.

Hey, it was a dark time for the business.

It's up: http://www1.play.it/audio/wooooo-nation/ Putting it in the OP

I respectfully disagree Steven. I enjoyed the 13-hour High Spots. I thought he was great on Austin. I thought he was good in the joint shoot with Terry Funk. Horrible on Legends of Wrestling roundtables. But y'know, I'm a Flair guy. You're not a Flair guy. Leave the Flair guys listen to Flair's shows.

Episode 1 is apparently set to drop today. I will be listening every episode. Even if it is a trainwreck, he's literally worked with them all, so who knows what stuff may come up. That makes it "must-listen" to me, much more than all the other wrestler pods out there. Ric has some interesting opinions about working style and psychology too. If he's in the right mood, he can have a lot to say. Let's hope we get good Ric and not Legends of Wrestling Ric. But I'm excited. EDIT: here it is ... http://www1.play.it/audio/wooooo-nation/

I see stooging as things like begging off, heel bailing and not wanting to engage with the babyface, Arn Anderson's face when Ricky Steamboat is the mystery partner at the Clash, all of those aspects of the heel performance that put over the babyface as someone to be feared. Dennis Condrey was very good at stooging. I don't see it as a bad thing at all. I just think that the claims that Lou Thesz was a stooging champion are wildly exaggerated from a tiny moment during his match with Verne and that he was in no-way a stooging champ.

There seems like there is a lot more Slater on tape than there is Bob Orton Jr. I may get round to a closer look. He was a top talent in the late 70s / early 80s but my sense is that he became a bit too Terry-Funk-lite later on.

I would like Bob Orton Jr to make my list, but need to collate a watching list. Any and all info a recommendations welcome. As far as I can tell, there are only four matches of his tagging with Dick Slater on tape: Dick Slater/Bob Orton, Jr. vs Wahoo McDaniel/Mark Youngblood Dick Slater/Bob Orton, Jr. vs Ric McCord/Keith Larsen (Ric Flair Runs In & Attacks Slater & Orton) Dick Slater/Bob Orton, Jr. vs Scott McHee/Steve Muzlin And this ... A Dory match that escaped my radar!

I've just heard Dave Meltzer say something similar to Terry about Lou as champ. He does say that in the 50s they must have thought it was the right thing for the business otherwise they wouldn't have kept him as champ as long as they did, but because Lou would guzzle challengers, he wasn't very popular with the boys. He had respect, but he wasn't well liked.

I've argued for Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton. Depends on how low down the card you want to go. Doug Somers was a good hand, I don't see him being nominated. I thought Edge / Jericho / Christian / Matt Hardy were all main eventers at various times no?

I got an answer from Kevin: "Dory and Terry are some of our best friends, The 1st Tex Stadium Show, Dad and Dory Jr. Both are great" Dory just retweeted my discovery of tape of a match of his against Red Bastien from Amarillo in 1975 buried on a random episode of TNT, and seems to have ignored my question. I also wonder if it's really Dory on there though, because Marty runs a lot of his online stuff right?

I still have no idea what you're on about.

Eh? What does this mean? What's "workmanship"?

Same for Terry in his book too. My idea was that it might have been something like: Pre-79: they were on good terms because their dad was tight with Fritz and he voted for Terry for the title. They didn't work in Dallas because they were busy in Amarillo, Japan and elsewhere. 81-84 or so: they might have been pissed at Fritz for moving into West Texas after Murdoch and Mulligan went under. And perhaps Gary Hart is remembering something of that. (Although they weren't pissed enough for Dory not to tag with David for that tag run in Florida) Post-84: as tragedies rack up, out of a combination of repsect for their old man, personally knowing Fritz, loving the business, and as stalwart NWA guys, they put it down to water under the bridge and let by-gones be by-gones. There's also one question that we might be able to find the answer to: - What matches between the Von Erichs and the Funks is Kevin talking about in that shoot? If he takes time out to talk about it, surely it must have happened, but when and where? Aside from Dory tagging with David in Florida, I've not come across any interaction between The Funks and the von Erich boys.

How do you compare him to Hardy / Edge / Jericho / Christian, OJ? Or in other words, are any of those four guys worth my time?

When we did the Amarillo show on Titans, I wondered about why the Funks never seemed to work WCCW -- and not only them but most of their West Texas crew as well, with the exception of Brody. In his book, apparently, Gary Hart claims that The Funks hated Fritz for the way he took over Texas. This contradicts what Funk says in his own book, in which there is no hint of animosity towards Fritz and a good deal of respect and gratitude because Fritz had the deciding vote that made Terry NWA world champ. He also talks about how Fritz and Dory Sr were good friends. Something seems strange. Terry goes out of his way to put over Fritz, and if the story about the NWA title vote is true, why would he hate him? There doesn't seem to be any time when the Funks went against their dad's wishes and Dory Sr and Fritz were running buddies. They also had an ongoing talent trade deal when Amarillo was still running, so you can see guys working shots for the Funks then going to Dallas. Fritz wrestled Dory Jr in 1972 in front of 26,000. If I ever track down that seemingly-never-watched-by-anyone Dory Jr shoot, which is 3 hours, maybe they'll ask him about Fritz Here's a bit of Dory talking about Fritz and especially that match in 72: Again, not much hint of any animosity. Here's some on this on Classics: http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=027068;p=1 I haven't seen it either, but Kevin von Erich says this in a shoot interview: "The Funks- They loved wrestling Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr. but it didn’t draw well because the older crowd had quit coming to the matches and the younger crowd who had started coming wanted to see him and his brothers wrestle someone else young instead of the Funks. Kevin feels that someone should write a book about the whole Funk family or Terry in particular because he’s so colorful." Since Dory did the shot in Florida with David in 81, I'm not sure if there was real heat there. Maybe they had some good reasons for the Funks not running in Dallas. Any additional info or insight from anyone? Does anyone else other than Gary Hart ever mention this or go into it? I just tweeted both Kevin and Dory to ask about it.

No, nothing to do with main event pushes and more to do with rep. The guys I'm making time for have reps as being best in the world for right or for wrong. I don't really see Matt Hardy get pimped like I see Rey get pimped. Angle is included because a certain section of fans pimp him, while he's not generally thought of very highly here. I'm more likely to make time for Lou Thesz or Verne Gagne than I am for New Jack. I'm more likely to watch five Billy Robinson matches than I am five Bobby Jaggers matches. More likely to seek out Jim Breaks than Davey Boy Smith. And so on. I don't really see Matt Hardy as an elite guy with a rep as an all-timer, so he wasn't on my consideration list. If enough people whose opinions I respect pimp him, that might turn around. I'm open to being sold. I'd take the same approach with any list of this kind of any medium.

This might seem bizarre, and a bit apples to oranges, but where would people rate Piper vs. guys like Matt Hardy and Chris Jericho? Does everyone have Piper firmly below Hardy, Jericho, Christian ... Edge? I'm just interested. It may convince me to find a new benchmark. I always thought I was low on Piper, but reading through this thread, it appears others seem like they are even lower.

I don't know what you mean.

The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher vs The Destroyer & Mr.Wrestling First real look at The Destroyer here, who I will be tackling soon. This is 1977 I believe, and The Sheik looks so much younger and more mobile than he would four years later. He aged ALOT in that time -- probably a combination of drugs, his business going down and age. Doesn't help here that Detroyer and Tim Woods are wearing almost identical mask and gear. Mr. Wrestling has to be the slightly smaller one. Abby and Sheik double team him. Punches, bites, choke over the ropes. Destroyer in. Headlock. Irish whip by Abby but Destroyer slips under the bottom rope and out. He looks agile. Mr. Wrestling in. Throat shots by Abby. Action goes outside and all four men brawl outside. Sheik and Mr. Wrestling back in. Shoulder charge by Wrestling. Shoulder charge by The Sheik. Elbow drop by Abby for 1, 2, 3. This was decent. That couple of steps of pace and age make a hell of a difference when it comes to The Sheik. He's a complete shadow in 1981 of what he was even in 1977. *** The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher vs Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta This is from RWTL 77 as well. Sheik does his prayer mat routine at the start. Abby and Baba to start and its all real slow psych-out stuff. Baba has longer hair than normal which looks strange. I had to look a couple of times to see if it was the right guy! Sheik sneaks in with the object and suckers Baba, which puts him down. Something about this looks off to me, doesn't look much like Baba! His arms aren't skinny enough, his hair is too long. Doesn't look alien enough. Jumbo is looking really stacked too. This one devolves pretty quickly outside as The Sheik grabs a chair and nails Baba outside the ring. Chokes Jumbo in the middle, as Baba comes back in and hits hit big boot. Cover gets two with an Abby save. Sheik with chokes again. Abby in and Baba looks quite nasty on offense. Jumbo in with a running knee. Abby goes down after a chop. Sheik grabs Jumbo from the outside though and chokes him. Then he cuts Baba off as Abby continutes to choke on Jumbo. Shoulder charge by Abby. Dumps Jumbo. Back in and Baba in. Stomps on Abby's head. Double teaming by the Japanese now. Some back and forth. Sheik comes in. Disguised choke with the object. Baba goes over to slap his head. Jumbo with some forearms now. Headlock. Baba in. Headlock. Sheik lures him to the corner with Abby for doubleteaming. Snapmare by Baba. Stomp and a twist. Abby in to break. Sheik covers as Abby hits the elbow for 1, 2, 3. Wow, pretty huge pinfall. Terry Funk is here and they immediately corner him and bloody his face. Bell rings like crazy as they beat on the bloodied Funk. Sheik keeps Baba away. Ring floods with young boys. I love this chaos, this was a feud for the ages.There are bodies everywhere, and Sheik is still choking Funk out with the tag rope. Dory is here now, and he has .... a stool!!! Bell still ringing like crazy. Abby headbutting Jumbo and Baba. Dory attacks Abby. It's wild out there. Terry is completely bloodied and staggering. They go after him again and he's doing the shaky leg sell. All of this makes that pay off at the end of the 1978 match all the more special. Abby and Jumbo STILL going at it as Dory tries to protect Terry. Sheik is still going after him. Dory throws Sheik into a table. Terry is noodle legged and staggering. Abby still at ringside, he's not leaving. His face is covered in blood too. God, I can barely remember the actual match, but the post-match is great and needs to be seen by anyone who has seen the tag matches that followed. *** for the match, **** for the angle. The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher vs Kim Duk & Kintaro Oki These two versus some lower card guys now and this is still the same tourney. Wild to start again outside the ring ... because The Funks are there and raising cain. Terry wants to fight and Dory is there too. This is the only time I've ever seen The Funks in the red All Japan gear at ringside. Match starts and the heels have Duk isolated and work their usual cheapness. Chair shot outside by Sheik on Duk, pretty shiny chair too. Abby slams Duk's head into a table. Back in the ring. Camel clutch by Sheik as Abby kicks him in the face. Duk tries to come back but Abby cuts him off. Oki finally tags in and he's ready to fight. Abby is unphased. Headbutts by Oki. Abby takes him over to The Sheik who stabs him with the pencil, really lays it in before slipping it back down his boot. Duk back in. Abby with the headbutt. Dumps him. Sheik out and throws a chair at his head before rolling him back in. Bodyslam by Abby. Elbow drop. That'll do for three. Really solid match which demonstrates the basic gameplan of these two cheating bastards. There is not even the suggestion that they are ever going to play fair! ***1/2 The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher vs Billy Robinson & Horst Hoffman Abby has some swank black head dress to match Sheik's. The Sheik does his prayers and Billy Robinson mimics him and mocks him. Pretty disrespectful if you ask me. If Allah is real, Robinson is down there burining with Sheik. Abby and Robinson to start and Robinson is pretty fired up and ready to fight. Uppercut. Headbutt, but he hurts his own head. And again. Full nelson by Robinson! Full nelson, you really don't see that alot. Hoffman in. Snapmare. Goes for a second but Abby blocks and hits a hip toss. Sheik in. Single leg takedown by Hoffan. Robinson mimics Sheik again with the chicken strut and hits a hamstring snap. Robinson is really goofing it up in this match as if to say "hey, look at these clowns, I can do gimmick too". Sheik looks pissed and doesn't even try to disguise the pencil which he gives Robinson a real whack with, he goes down with a cool falling back bump. Another big shot by the Sheik. He's extra specially grumpy tonight, maybe Robinson's goofing annoyed him. Abby stomps on Robinson outside, who is struggling to get back in the ring. Sheik kicks him back out. Eventually he gets back in and hits a massive forearm smash on Abby. Cover gets two. Sheik comes in and goes for a pencil attack. And again, dumps him. And we get our routine double CO finish and post-match brawl. Robinson wants to keep fighting and goes after Abby. Double noggin knocker between him and the Sheik, but they want no more and walk off. Pretty interesting match this one. Robinson looked very good and showed he was more than willing to try to work the brawling style with these guys, even if it was tinged with mockery. Match did a good job of keeping everyone's heat. This looks like it was a really good tournament all-in-all. ***1/2 The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher vs Wahoo McDaniel vs Frank Hill So this one is from the 1979 tournament. Obviously, they only had one match together in 1978 (vs. The Funks, Sheik got injured at the hands of Dory and Tor Kamata replaced him for the other matches). Frank Hill is Jules Strongbow. I can hear the Japanese commentator saying "Indian". As a small aside, I'd love to see Sheik and Abby beat the living shit out of Jay Strongbow. Sheik with a throat shot on Wahoo. Frank Hill has the same "sack of shit" physique as Chief Jay Strongbow, they were a natural team in many ways. Feel sorry for Wahoo having to team with such a sub-par talent. Sheik decks him with the pencil and stabs his shoulder. Abby in. Double teaming until Wahoo comes in and smacks the shit out of Abby. Meanwhile, Sheik has the foreign object up Hill's nose. Tomahawk chop by Hill. Sheik cuts him off and puts on a headlock, Abby in. Hill with some jobber offense, but Abby cuts him off. Sheik in. Bite. Wahoo in! Crowd excited. Chop. Abby in. Chop. Chop. Chop. Chop. Chop. Collar and elbow tie up. Headbut by Abby. Chop on the top of Abby's head. Clothesline by Wahoo. But Sheik thorws a chair at him. Wahoo with the chair and nails Sheik. Nails Abby. Hip toss. Elbow drop. Cover gets two. Sheik in with an attack on the throat. Jobber Hill in with chops. Sheik with a disguised pencil shot. Abby in. Fallaway slam! Sheik in with another pencil shot on Hill. Camel clutch with the object. Choke with the object which also pins him. Wahoo needs to get himself a better partner for the RWTL. I hope Hill ate every single pinfall in the tourney. They start a heel beatdown on Hill now and THE FUNKS run out in cowboy hats to make the save. They fight with the hats on. Cool! Wahoo still fighting. Hill out cold. Dory has one of them cowboy leather neck ties on. Full on brawl breaking out now. Okay match, with another wild post-match, which has kind of been the theme of this run. **1/2 ------------ Watching through all this, it seems to me that Sheik reserved his big performances for the final match vs. The Funks in both the 77 and the 79 tournaments (and only had the one match in 78). Abby carries the bulk of the work, but you'd have to expect that because Sheik was 51 years old in 1977 whereas Abby was only 36. Sheik turned in some good performances for a 51-year old. He was a good 15 years past his prime. As such, I wonder if we can really get a measure of him from any of this stuff, I'd like to see more of him from around the time of that match vs. Tom Jones, which I'm guessing is 60s. Looks like there is some more Detroit stuff coming up, but the next disc looks like it is full of ECW and FMW stuff. Pretty sad that he was wrestling into his 60s (and 70s!!) -- but then again Thesz wrestled till he was very old, Dory and Terry still get in the ring from time to time and the list goes on. Still, he was old in 1981, let alone the bloody 90s!

There you go My main thought coming out of that is that I really want to see more Invader #3 who looked really good in those two matches. As for Starr, he may be a bit limited for my tastes. It seems weird to say this but I thought his begging off was weirdly "undynamic" begging off. Like compared to a Flair or Arn, it isn't high-level begging off. What he does, he does seem to do well though and is a pretty good bleeder. If the scaffold match is his career match, I don't know if he'd have a shot at my 100. But he was certainly a decent worker from the evidence of those four matches.

Recommendations by Dylan. Chicky Starr vs. White Angel (1989) White Angel has a similar build to Paul Orndorff. Chicky Starr has an A+ moustache and a kind of a Mike Graham / Brian Blair type build. Seemingly he'd been working as a manager at this point. First five minutes is all shine for Angel, with basic punches and a hip toss. Starr begs off. Eventually we get our transition when Starr hits an inverse atomic drop out of the turnbuckle. Some basic offense from him now until Angel comes back with fists. Runs into Starr's knee and he takes over on offense again. Dumps Angel. Starr has colour from somewhere too, Angel is also bloodied. Heel colour commentator (I believe Rip Oliver) claims that only Angel is bleeding and Starr's colour is from a headbutt, ha ha. Suplex by Starr. Heat sequence from him now. Angel tries to come back at various points with punches, but they are just hope spots. Out of a commerical break and Starr has a reverse chinlock applied. Angel has another comeback attempt, but eats a kneelift. Chinlock back on. Angel is pretty fucking limited, Starr is leading him by the nose here. Angel eventually hits a horrible powerslam and a big back drop. This takes the action outside and eventually Starr posts Angel for a double CO. White Angel is pretty put together in terms of his body, but a horrible worker. Starr put in a "good hand" sort of performance here. ** Chicky Starr vs. Invader #1 Thank god we get the Spanish commentary here and not Rip Oliver, who was annoying as hell during the last match. This is pretty heated to start with a "dangerous" feeling atmosphere, there are armed guards around the ring. Starr is beating the crap out of Invader. Commentator sounds like he's on the loud speakers. Invader is busted open. Starr seems to have aged a lot between 1986 and 1989 because he's in better shape here with a "smoother" moustache. They go back in the ring and Starr goes to an armbar. It sounds like Fidel Castro is cutting a promo in this stadium, what the hell is going on? Armbar continues. Starr throws some good punches. He's completely hammered on Invader here who has had zero offense. Kneedrop. Cover only gets one. Invader finally gets half a clobbered arm in for a pop, but Starr immediately dumps him. Back outside and he nails him some more. Invader gets back in and hits a reverse knife edge. Slugfest back and forth now. Invader starts jumping up and down and crowd has erupted. Starr bails. Count out win for Invader. Weird match in which Starr gets 99% of offense and then bails at the first sign of the bloodied-up Invader fighting, don't get that psychology at all. I felt Starr was a little too one dimensional. In over 8-minutes of offense we got the same overhead punch over and over again, and an armbar. I'd have liked to have seen him show off a bit more of his arsenal. Maybe you have to understand the context to understand the finish, because I didn't get it at all. The guy on the loud speaker seemed entirely disconnected from what was going on, which was weird too. **1/2 Chicky Starr vs. Invader #3 (1988) On second thoughts, I think I'd rather have Rip Oliver than the loud speaker guy. This is one of those PR matches in the outdoor stadium. Starr has colour almost before we begin with Invader #3 going to work on him. Starr begs off in the ring. He comes back a bit and hits an inverse atomic drop. #3 comes back. Irish whip into the turnbuckle. Starr begs off again. Commentary team is not good at all. Starr covered in blood here. #3 bites the cut. And then attacks it with punches. Kneelift by #3. Hard right by #3. Starr takes a tumble. Brutal attack outside by #3 now and Starr looks like he's lost a pint of blood. Begs off some more. Starr finally gets some offense in. Kicks #3 out of the ring. Suplex by Starr back into the ring? No, Invader lands on top of him. Jabbing lefts and rights by #3, who throws some mean-looking punches. Still attacking that cut. Choke on the middle rope. #3 is a man possessed. Starr has the real crimson mask here, dark red. Shot to the gut by Starr and a knee. Commentary team is absolutely atrocious, don't think it's Rip Oliver on this one. It's a guy with a spanish accent and a pair of brothers, one of whom is called Bart. They are so bad at doing colour. When people criticise Jesse Ventura, they want to look at these clowns to see how hard the role is. Back suplex by Starr! Two count. Good nearfall. #3 goes for something in the turnbuckle but Starr dumps him on the back of the head and hits an elbow for the three. This was a really good brawl, which was really undersold by some awful commentary. Invader #3 looked terrific on offense for the best part, and looks like a worker I could get into. Ricky Starr gave you your "Tully Blanchard gets his ass kicked for 90% of the match before squeaking out a win" performance. It's not a narrative I've ever cared for, but it was very well executed here. Worth watching this one. **** Chicky Starr vs. Invader #3 (1986) This is the scaffold match. Drop looks a legit 30 feet. I am no fan of scaffold matches, so automatic low expectations. Commentary once again is absolutely appalling, I think it is Rip Oliver this time. This is a wider platform than we usually see in these matches. I can't believe anyone is going to fall that far. The scaffold is teetering and wobbling. It looks pecarious. Dropkick by Invader #3! That was a "holy shit" spot. Starr has colour. Starr is hanging off the side of the platform. Starr goes to the eyes. He comes back now and #3's legs are dangling over the side. Seriously that drop is fucking huge. Headbutt by #3. Knee to the chest by #3. Starr begs off. Starr with a right and #3 falls. Well, I marked, I thought he was about to fall. #3 comes back. Starr is on the edge now. Kicks to the head by #3. Starr is teetering. Wow, SUPLEX on the platform. That takes some balls. Bodyslam? No, Starr blocks it. Man, it looked like they were teetering and about to throw each other over the edge. Chinlock by Starr. Shot to the kidney. #3 goes down. Starr on top for a bit now. I still refuse to believe anyone is going to take this fall. #3 is on the edge again, both legs dangling. He's by his fingertips now. Starr walks away and thinks he's won. #3 holds on and climbs back up. Good strength by #3 there. Starr starts to climb back down thinking he's won. But #3 is back and after him. Starr with a double throat shot to cut him off. Now Starr is hanging by his hands. #3 is stomping on the fingertips! OH SHIT! He did, he took the fall. Jesus Christ, he went down like a sack of potatoes. Surprised he didn't fall straight through the ring. Well, this is certainly the best scaffold match I've ever seen. Better than Koko vs. Dundee for sure. Reason being that you really feel that sense of danger here. The drop is so far that it looks legit terrifying and the drop kick and suplex were both "OMG" moments, as well as the struggle over that bodyslam and the moment #3 falls from Starr's sudden right-hand punch. About as good a job as you might do with this gimmick. Also, not sure how Starr didn't break every bone in his body with the drop. ****