JerryvonKramer

Okay going with Beach Blast 93 and Summerslam 93 Paul Orndorff - still see him going to WWF, probably working up in Canada, and bouncing around the other territories. Ron Simmons - I think he would have been a big deal in Florida and a mainstay of that promotion. I don't see why he couldn't have been a staple draw there. Marcus Alexander Bagwell - Hard to say, but I think he would have made a good living as a blow job babyface whereever. Too Cold Scorpio - He'd have found work everywhere, but I don't know if he's a big star anywhere. If they were running it, he could have been a travelling NWA Junior Heavyweight champ a la Les Thornton. Shanghai Pierce & Tex Slazenger - hmmmm, have territorial mid-card act written all over them. Could have maybe been a major tag-team in a lesser promotion like a Dick the Bruiser's WWA or somewhere like that. Lord Steven Regal - big heel star who'd have worked everywhere, run in Memphis, run in Crockett, run in Georgia, run in New York, don't see why he wouldn't have gotten over in every place. Erik Watts - assuming Bill is running Mid-South, he could have had a Mike Graham-y sort of career, maybe. Johnny B. Badd - Really hard to know what he would have done, any insights welcome. I find it hard to imagine Badd in the earlier landscape for some reason. Maxx Payne - jobber most probably, maybe a run higher up the card in some backwater territory Flyin' Brian - could have been a Ricky Steamboat-type over top babyface in a promotion. Can see him being over in Crockett actually. Don't see him in New York. Stunning Steve - would have been a star probably around Texas more. If Amarillo was running you can see him getting over in The Funks' territory, face or heel. Arn Anderson - career wouldn't change too much, maybe he doesn't get the WWF run without the national picture, but see him working GCW, Mid-South, Crockett in a holding pattern a bit like Ole did with GCW, Crockett and Florida. Paul Roma - he'd have made a living for sure as a journeyman Dustin Rhodes - can see him getting over, especially in Florida and Dusty's other mainstay territories. Possibly NWA champ at some point down the road. Rick Rude - Top heel around the country. Definite shots vs. champ in New York. Would have worked an Ivan Koloff / Ernie Ladd sort of schedule I think. 6 months here, 9 months there. Shots in AWA at some point as well. Ric Flair - Career not changed too much. Maybe travel gets to him a bit earlier and he steps down as NWA champ around 1990. Only Sting won't be the guy getting the rub from the switch. Barry Windham - possible NWA champ to replace Flair. His career surely would have been better than it was. He'd work Florida, Crockett, Texas, no reason why he couldn't run in AWA or New York either. All the places his old man worked. Davey Boy Smith - I don't see him travelling that much through the territories, but he would have done Calgary and Japan for sure. I can see him settling in a promotion and maybe getting over as a number #2 babyface, but beats me where that would be. Perhaps a bit small for New York? Sting - maybe over as a star in Crockett or GCW post-Tommy Rich. Don't see him becoming a World Champ though. Big Van Vader - can see him being a bit more like Stan Hansen and working more in Japan than in the US for the better pay days. Doesn't become world champ. More WWF shots as big man vs. champion. Probably would have worked AWA more too. Sid Vicious - hard to say, I honestly can't imagine Sid making it through any of the territories, as a heel he might have had a Big John Studd-type career, but I don't know if a guy so bad at the basics gets over in the territorial days. .... Razor Ramon - No reason he couldn't have made a good living and I can see him getting over in the right time and place. Weirdly, I think Knoxville for some reason, but no idea why. Ted DiBiase - I don't really see him leaving Mid-South if the other places aren't national. He'd have stayed loyal to Watts and Baba until the end. Working the sort of split schedule he did in 85/6. The Steiner Brothers - big stars, they had that legit background the old timers loved and would have main evented in tag-heavy promotions. Big splash in Crockett. Can see them in AWA too. The Heavenly Bodies - don't see their careers being much different Shawn Michaels - don't see him becoming world champ or going to WWF, but he'd have been a star. Diesel - Could have made a living as a monster heel. Mr. Perfect - Maybe his career would have been enhanced, I see him staying in AWA though and maybe being their champ for some time. Irwin R. Schyster - I think Rotunda stays in Florida more with stints in JCP and GCW, but I don't see him moving much out of that loop. The 1-2-3 Kid - probable jobber, can't see a guy with that build being booked Bret Hart - hmmmm... very interesting. Maybe someone else can speculate here. But he probably stays in Stampede longer. Doubtful he ever gets to be world champ. Doink - I think is career isn't altered that much by this Jerry Lawler - obvious Ludvig Borga - makes a living as a foreign heel Marty Jannetty - he'd have been booked everywhere as a good hand, maybe even a star The Undertaker - would have had a career, but highly doubtful it would have been a legendary one. As the gimmick maybe in LA or Detroit? Surely would have had a run vs. champ in WWF too. Giant Gonzalez - career trajectory exactly the same, whatever the time or place. Tatanka - Replaces Wahoo or Chief Jay as resident Indian, OR plays two-bit knock off Indian in Central States or some other two-bit promotion The Smoking Gunns (Bart Gunn & Billy Gunn) - can see them travelling about as a tagteam Bam Bam Bigelow - no doubt would have been an attraction with his "big man who can move" stuff, obvious Andre opponent, shots vs. champ in WWF, shots in AWA, can see him booked everywhere -- career similar to Jerry Blackwell's. The Headshrinkers - would have been booked whereever The Samoans were. Have WWF tag-champs written all over them. Curfew draws a-plenty. Lex Luger - maybe he stays in Florida longer and vies with Ron Simmons to be the biggest star down there. Would have got over anywhere due to his amazing look. Yokozuna - I'm picturing some weird gimmick match in Detroit with probable runs in LA and WWF. Would have been a special attraction like Haystacks Calhoun only heel.

Soon I'm going to pick two random cards from WWF and WCW in 1990 and go through them speculating on what the guys careers would have been like with full territories active. People have pointed to more modern-era examples, but I think the territories were effectively dead by about 1985 anyway, so most guys active 85-95 will have had very different careers.

Let's be clear, you were dropped for low ratings. LOL

You have to go without TV for three months. You need to make up the loss of exposure by touring key areas and by running more live shows every week. Note how I dealt with the month of no TV when I was waiting for Superstars to change over to Tempo TV. I'd recommend a minimum of 3 live shows a week, if not more. One in home region, two in key secondary markets. Then look through TV stations and target those you think you have a chance of getting a deal with. I'd also take the game off auto-save, because when those talks come, they will be crucial. (Incidentally, I can't play at the moment because my game is stored on an external HDD and I've got USB issues. No TEW or indeed podcasts until I can fix!)

And you've already saved?

I agree that Orton is one guy whose development seems really stunted from the current era guys. But what sort of role do you see him playing in the territories? Main event travelling heel? NWA champ? Not disagreeing, necessarily, but I'm struggling to think of a similar guy that was a big star in previous eras. Who would be a point of comparison would you say?

Imagine a scenario whereby none of the promotions try to expand or go national, and all of the territories persist into the 1990s intact. In this scenario, let's go back to the landscape of 1975. Detroit, LA and San Francisco all still active. GCW and Mid-Atlantic separate promotions. WWF run in the Vince Sr style. AWA doing well in its major markets but not expanding beyond them. Canadian promotions viable places to work. That's the landscape. What sort of star do you think the major stars of the 80s and 90s would have been? How would it have affected their careers? Where do you see certain guys homesteadding? Who is a bigger star as a result? Who is a smaller star? Why? This is just a fun thing to think about. Just a random example: do you think guys like Barry Windham or Mike Rotunda would have just stayed in Florida, or would they have travelled? What would a guy like Sid's career have looked like? Important note: I do not want people coming in and talking about whether any of this was possible or even plausible. We all know that the territory system probably would not have persisted. This is not the point of this thread. If you want to state the obvious, make another thread in which to do it. I specifically do not want this to become a debate about how likely or unlikely it would have been. This is purely imagining what guys' careers would have been like had the territories been intact.

You used a totally kick ass version of that song with The Meters doing the funk backing. Love those guys. "Cissy Strut" also a favourite.

But was the name of the old music though?

Would like the old intro theme back though, what was that old music?

Loved this!

Weren't people like Penny Banner and June Byers draws in their own right and more legit-seeming stars? I always got the impression that there were more "lady wrestlers" pre-Moolah than after her. Like in the 1950s you can think of numerous women who were making a living as wrestlers, like Ted Dibiase's mother Hilda Hild, Judy Grable, Betty Jo Hawkins, Nell Stewart, Mae Weston, Violet Vann. The whole scene seems more vibrant in general. Who were the female wrestling stars of the 1970s during Moolah's reign of terror?

I think that's a fair point Dylan.

DiBiase is no chance? Why?

Those matches weren't on AJ Excite viewing for some reason, I'll give them a review soon.

Don't think his booking runs were strong enough.

I was being facetious of course. I think I've actually seen James Storm live, possibly it was against Bobby Roode, possibly ... can't really remember. There's absolutely no way he has a stronger body-of-work than Dory Jr. Or are you about to tell me I should have been watching TNA all of these years? I'd rather not rehash any of my old arguments about him or anyone else though. I feel people know my positions well, I'd rather hear from other contributors.

Actually Tully above Windham, what am I thinking? I think Dory's overall body of work is stronger than both at this point by the way. He's taken a big upswing for me recently.

The idea of James Storm being above Dory sickens me to my stomach. But it's all cool, everyone is entitlted to their opinions. I feel I've seen enough Mark Henry, by the way, he's not making my 100. I've fallen lower on Tully for some reason, and I'm trying to work out why. I think it's because I don't like the structure of a lot of his singles matches.

For me, the more I've seen of Hansen the more he's kinda slipped. I loved the match with Kawada but Hansen seems to have an awful lot of middling or disappointing matches to me against really good opponents. He's been slowing trending townwards for me.

Could you add Bill Watts to the list maybe? His nickname was "The Cowboy". 1. Terry Funk 2. Stan Hansen 3. Ted DiBiase 4. Dory Funk Jr. 5. Barry Windham 6. Tully Blanchard 7. Dick Murdoch 8. Dustin Rhodes 9. Bob Orton Jr (based solely on "whenenver I've seen him pop up") 10. Kerry von Erich 11. Steven Austin 12. Dusty Rhodes 13. Tito Santana 14. Dutch Mantell 15. Mark Henry 16. Bruiser Brody Kevin Von Erich - over David? Don't feel like I've seen enough Kevin. James Storm -- ?? Huh? Who?

Eduard Carpentier transitioned from being an Olympic gymnast to a pro wrestler. Gymnastics to pro wrestling is a road not often traveled. What are some other unusual paths taken by guys who became wrestlers or otherwise involved in the game?

I honestly believe though that it is partly not his fault. If he'd have come up through indies, or in a different era, I think he could have learned to get better at that stuff or be packaged in a way (let's say with a manager or in a tagteam / stable) that hid his deficiencies. Randy Orton is one of the first guys whose career we have practically from the start in the post-territory post-WCW WWE. I think his development was severely stunted from being on TV too much and from being straight-jacketed by working in a mico-managed environment. He's exhibit A in why I hate the current product, but I don't blame him for it, he's a product of that set of policies. Now he'll probably never be a compelling worker, but he might have been if he'd have been harnessed differently.