JerryvonKramer

Great, we're back to there was never any such thing as kayfabe going back to the 1880s again. Another thread destroyed.

Whenever a wrestler says that, the bullshit detector should go off. 10 year old fans in the 70s knew wrestling was a work. You honestly believe that guys training learning how to throw Fake Punches and take Bumps didn't know it was a work? That they spent their entire training camps doing shoot matches / sparing? Doesn't matter how many times people say it, it's still bullshit. Just as much as it's bullshit when Thesz talked about how people wrestled in his day. Then we got enough tape, and there's Lou bitching & selling & begging off for Verne. It's a different topic but the extent of said bitching is wildly overstated. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30010-different-styles-of-the-nwa-touring-champ/?view=getnewpost

Seems like it was a combination of things, that bookers and promoters would be on the phone to each other all the time. Funk talks about ringing Eddie Graham to send Bob Backlund from Amarillo down to Floria, Vince Sr rang Graham when he was looking for a new champ and was sent Bob. That's promoters dealing talent. To a certain extent bookers would have a roster of home-steading guys to work with and the promoter might bring in guys for runs and the booker had to make do with it, but then you'd also have bookers bringing in their own crews / cliques to run whatever angles. It's more visible in the 80s in places like Georgia, Crockett, and Mid-South when we know who was booking exactly and when, and where that person was different from the promoter. Having Buck Robley as a booker dramatically increases the chances of Bruiser Brody coming in for a run (for example). Dusty's going to bring in Florida guys. Dory is going to use West Texas guys. Robert Fuller guys from South East and so on. No hard and fast rule, but it's going to be more likely if there's an existing connection there. That's why when we were watching that Amarillo show recently and Dick Murdoch was hyping San Francisco talent like Pat Patterson and Dean Ho at their upcoming show, I was a bit dubious as to whether that actually happened. Not only because he seemed unsure, but also because that's a weird connection. I'd have believed him more readily if it had been Stan Hansen or Dusty, say, just because those guys were friends. At other times I get the impression that certain guys were doing what we'd call now "talent relations" (Jim Ross's old job) rather than actual booking. Grizzly Smith seemed to do this job for Watts while other guys like Ernie Ladd did the actual creative booking end of things.

Did Jesse really make Tito or Steamer seem like jobbers? This seems like a very strong claim to me. I thought they always referenced Tito as a former IC champ. I thought Jesse generally did a good job of talking guys up while picking up on little qualms he had with them. He didn't bury anyone. But I'd have to go back and watch some Superstars to make a real assessment, because I'm going on old memories. He certainly didn't bury anyone on this show.

Reason I ask this is because I think I've seen the vast majority of top tier Funk stuff form 70s and 80s at this point and I'm not sure it can stack against Jumbo and Flair (as two examples) or even some other guys. His body of work is weirdly kinda disparate, with moments of really high quality years apart. I still have Puerto Rico to look at (Dory's stuff there was CRAP, and The Funks had a vastly inferior match with the Road Warriors there compared with their match against them in AJPW), but that's something to come. But I think aside from a few odds and ends (maybe some a couple of loose South West stones?), I've exhausted Terry's 70s-80s output and I'm not sure if it's quite top-five level. And I LOVE the guy.

Really great info, Matt, thanks a lot! You wonder how Verne found the time with working an active in-ring schedule and running AWA. Pretty amazing guy.

What's Giegel's third string after wrestler and promoter?

On Graham, there's a case where you think of Matsuda more as the trainer. I think promoting and booking are two really different skillsets and Graham would surely qualify for both, but I can understand the obvious reasons for not wanting to separate those two things out.

Yeah because a patronising break down of all of the different functions in wrestling and how they all actually just two broad types is exactly what this thread needed. Who's being childish? I ask about trifecta candidates, that passive-aggressive boring fuck's instincts are to move to try to deny the theoretical possibllity of a trifecta candidate by reducing the categories to just two. Brilliant end of conversation. Great contribution! Just like your post there. It's a disguised form of trolling.

Another question is how strongly do people weight his 90s and 00s stuff in his GWE case?

So where do other people go on Rude vs Steamer on this one, because I was blown away by it this time and thought it was a MOTYC at ****3/4, legit great match.

Here's my random question: is there a general thread about wrestling books? I'm sure there was one. The only ones I can find are from back in 2006.

Every board needs a guy like you. So glad you're here bud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_Hall_of_Fame Managing, Commentating and so on are treated differently. Seems weird that jdw would question that given that ... he helped make that initial 1996 list. Interestingly, Verne is not in as a trainer but Stu Hart is. Vince didn't get a commentary credit in 1996, but Paul Boesch did. Heyman only went in as a promoter in 2005.

That's not true though is it? Lance Russell doesn't go in the same category as Jerry Lawler does he? I thought there was a non-wrestler section of the ballot.

So we shouldn't believe the stories from Steamboat and Iron Sheik about Verne having them climb up the steps with just their arms? And all the other stuff that has been peddled over the years? The reality is with most schools (surely) is that there are going to be multiple guys involved in the actual training. Maybe Verne one day, maybe Robinson the next. Or maybe Verne did fitness and Robinson did mat skills. Or whatever. Who knows? Verne certainly gets credited with training an awful lot of people though, probably because it was called the "Verne Gagne Wrestling School".

That's a good one Kelly. Even if you take "Promoter / Booker / Office" as a category like the Sith Lord says, he's still more or less a slamdunk in the other three: 1. Commentator, 2. Promoter, 3. Onscreen Villain (and box office draw) -- don't think being one of the biggest heels of all time in one of the biggest money feuds of all time is a difficult case to make. This is a hard one though. Bill Watts possibly as Wrestler / Promoter / Commentator? Paul Heyman as Manager / Promoter / Commentator? To have three strong strings to the bow is tough.

He seems like such a nice guy and it's a weird one to fabricate (i.e. actually sending the pictures off). It is possible they are all true of course. i.e. That Funk did mention to Stallone that Hogan might be good, that the casting agent's brother also mentioned Hogan, AND that Apter sent the pics of Hogan. All entirely possible. Just one of those funny wrestling things that everyone seems to lay a claim to.

If you're talking Junior, I don't think his booking runs amount to much of a HoF case. He'd be on for a "double" wrestler / trainer one though, notwithstanding reservations about the "trainer" category. I think if ANYONE gets in on the strength of being a trainer though, Verne has got to be top of the list.

Reason I think you're wrong is that I was literally one-in-a-thousand sort of kid -- most kids' favourite wrestlers were babyfaces you were meant to cheer, my faves were guys like Ted DiBiase and IRS. Vast majority of fans were not heel fans. Vince didn't come across as dumb, because he was voicing what the majority of the audience were supposedly thinking. Ventura's logic was often logic twisted and distorted through his lens of dastardly evil anyway. What made Jesse so effective, though, is that he would temper his comments by not being ridiculously over-the-top one-sided and by giving credit to babyfaces now and then. He was very good at giving off at least the ostensible appearance of being vaguely impartial, whereas a Bobby Heenan was just completely 100% transparently pro-heel to the point where he had no credibility (in kayfabe terms). So Jesse was able to generate (kayfabe) credibility while also being pretty pro-heel most of the time. Vince was a total over-the-top-loon mark for Hogan on occasion, but don't forget that the vast majority of the time babyfaces were in the right (morally) so Vince de facto had the advantage of being right in those arguments (since it was Jesse twisting things). We remember the times when Jesse was actually right, but most of the time if you follow any of the arguments through Vince (and the babyface) were actually "right" (kayfabe-wise, morally, whatever). But also don't forget Jesse's team with Monsoon either -- Gorilla would also react to Jesse's arguments. And he wasn't as OTT as Vince, and he never came across as "dumb".

Okay, this is one of the most ridiculous things. Reading Terry Funk's book, I laughed out loud when he claimed credit for getting him the part in Rocky III through his connection with Sly Stallone. Funk claims that he recommended Hogan, and Vince Sr recommended Gorilla Monsoon. Reason I laugh is because this feels like the 5th or 6th different person that has claimed credit for that deal. Another one is Bill Apter, who says he sent Stallone photos of Hogan and Billy Graham for the part. So: 1. Let's list all of the different claims on this, to find the most outlandish and improbable one. and 2. Which, if any of them, are true?

2-0 Parv

Excellent brainfollower! 1-0 Parv. Take that Campbell!

Timely little bump for this ...

Verne was the actual trainer for guys like Iron Sheik, Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair. Inoki I'm less sure on because NJ Dojo had a lot of trainers, but he's credited as being the trainer of, for example, The Three Musketeers (Chono, Mutah, Hashimoto) as well as Tatsumi Fujinami.