JerryvonKramer

Bowie sucks? No Johnny!

Oh I didn't know that both him and Will were subbing. My point really is that he seemed to come in with a preexisting agenda and set of assumptions and a set of already-written conclusions and counter-arguments. And he was just in there with the wrong guy to do that with. I have since seen that he's got his head so far up his own arse that none of this really matters because he'll never see outside of his bubble anyway, but I don't see any of this as an excuse for what I consider to be bad behaviour and bad form. I've done so many shows with so many different people now, that I might have an over-acute sense of what a difficult personality can be like. But Will is the easiest guy in the world to do a show with, and it kind of really bugged me to see him treated like that by this smug guy. Agree with Brad though to draw a line under it and move on.

I'm really shocked at the idea that someone can't be put away with one finisher now. It's like people are saying that they've gone to false finishes so much before than it almost necessitates false finishes now. So people are upset that Cena-Rusev didn't have more of them? Or is it more that the AA has been so killed as a finisher that it's time for Cena to get a new one?

No, I don't buy that. If you're going to be on a show, do your homework, know what you're getting involved with. Don't assume that the guys on the other end of the line are whatever strawman figures you've just made up for yourself. And most of all, don't behave like a total twat in the process. But y'know, just my take.

Forgot to post this yesterday, but this is mainly so Steven has a basis of comparison. Breakdown of the financials so far: Note the massive escalation of costs upon reaching "Cult". Note also that I took some pretty big short-term hits to get where I wanted to be here. Including axing TV for a month to switch channels. In retrospect, I probably should have tried to keep challenge going, because that was an extra $60k a month.

Cena's always been the man. He survived the loss to Brock just fine and he survived an incredibly one sided feud with The Rock (until he won in the end) just fine too. They had a chance to make Rusev a made man last night and just blew it. It would've been Cena's first real loss in 200 days. I think he'd do okay. I'm not saying Cena needs to job all the time but he would've easily survived the Rusev loss because he's John Cena, while Rusev becomes the unstoppble main eventer and you can keep building him up until it's finally time for him to lose. Mania wasn't the time, especially like that. The win wasn't entirely clean though. It was an old-school manager-mixup-on-the-apron finish. So he has an excuse. Is this feud done now then? 1-1 by my count, with one "tainted" win on either side. Next step would be the cage match blow-off? Who will Rusev feud with otherwise? Bryan for the IC belt? Babyface Lesnar? I suspect too that Cena going over there was as much to do with Rollins going over in the main event. You can't have a heel walk out with the title AND have your ace lose to the evil Russian on the same card. If I'd done that in my 1983 booking I'd never ever hear the end of it. Shit, I put DiBiase over Bruno and never heard the end of it. And all I was trying to do was exactly this. And DiBiase was a bigger name in 1983 than Rusev is in 2015.

John Cena is "John Cena" because he won a lot of matches. I said it earlier, do you really think even Hogan or Bruno could withstand being jobbed out with that regularity? I don't get that thinking that says Cena is just totally untouchable. I can't think of any aces ever that jobbed out that much. Heels can lose because they lie and cheat and can spin that into a form of win anyway (see: Flair, Horsemen, etc.), babyface aces can't lose too often because it chops their balls off. Cena NEEDED that win to retain a sense of being "the man". I don't see why people think he didn't.

I don't agree because they'd already gone to that well twice recently. Once vs. Brock, once vs. Rusev. Another job and Cena starts to lose his aura. Losses don't matter? Look at Undertaker this year. One loss and no aura left at all. Job out the ace enough and he loses his aura too. Rusev can take the loss, he's a heel who got his comeuppance.

The point is that if all of this amounted to "heat against the company" they wouldn't do that. But they do. Heat against the company in real terms is not spending money with the company. All other heat is business-generating heat if the fans are still spending money. A truth of the modern paradigm.

Which they do continually, in a 'wink wink' way. How much WWE do you actually watch? Seems like you treated the events last night in complete isolation. Russo started the trend of short sighted, short term booking working towards a quick buzz, a quick fix - Money In The Bank is the culmination of that, and the opposite of running a well booked, meaningful product where the belt means something and there is something at stake. I'm only watching the PPVs at the moment. I've watched Rumble and Fast Lane. I don't watch Raw. I absolutely despise the "wink wink" elements you're talking about and wish that all such elements could be dropped from the product. Okay fair enough. But I guess we disagree over whether this was the right time to pull the trigger. CLEARLY Vince or the booking team felt that he isn't ready yet. In fact, speaking of All Japan, it's actually a leaf out of Giant Baba's book. They are being patient. He's Tenryu in 88, not 89. Needs more time. We probably agree on a lot of this stuff, I'd prefer the heel authority figure to vanish too. I am, as you say, extracting based on what you've said during this debate.

Come on - they have literally done the exact opposite. He has gone from getting a clean, decisive win against the biggest heel in the company after a violent brawl, to getting pinned by a chicken shit heel in a screwy finish. One of these two scenarios turned Reigns into a dead duck, and it isn't the one you are praising. I don't see that as being what's happened though. He's gone from getting booed and being seen as "their guy" to getting genuine babyface heat after a brutal match and then being cruelly denied the win by getting screwed by his former buddy. NOW people have a reason to care about him whereas before he seemed like a corporate-champion in waiting. I honestly don't see how you think him winning and getting booed would have been better. Baffling.

Actually the Russo way is to break kayfabe and admit that the product is scripted and fake. You've also got to look at your history a bit too since you're so keen on it. If you follow every single thing you've been asking for, WWE would be booked like 90s All Japan. When in US wrestling history has the product been booked like that? Not in Crockett. Not in Florida (Graham went to ref bump practically every match). Not in GCW. Not even in Watts. You're literally asking for Sam Muchnick-booked St. Louis-style, and EVEN THERE screwy finishes and so on were par for the course. My point is, to an extent, "get real".

Nothing says "heat against the company" like a 76,000+ gate. Just saying.

Do you know how hard it is to make heels in this day and age? The fact that it is so unfair and "devalues the title", generated heat from you by the looks of things. But because everyone is "smart" now, it's the booking that gets it, not the wrestler. I don't know what the solution is for that, but I think it did a good job of creating something that people thought they wanted to see and then denying them that to CREATE DEMAND for it. While also making a villain. I perceive Rollins as being a HTM-style champ with the way he won. If he can't get over as a chicken-shit, then maybe we need to do away with the concept of heels in wrestling period. The fans put themselves over as wanting good wrestling, so it makes sense for the heel to be someone who denies them what they want. This is basic wrestling psychology. And this was an instance of them understanding the changing dynamics of the audience and playing to it well. If it was 1991, Reigns would have made a big comeback and gone over clean. It's not 1991. My understanding is that this is the first time they've run with an "inject myself into the match stip" finish. Usually it comes after the match has ended, no? What would have been bad for long-term booking was Reigns to go over and booed. What else would have been bad? Brock to go over and be an absent champion. Here you have a champ that people have a reason to hate, with at least THREE challengers who have legit motivation to want to mow him down. Orton for the next minor-league PPV, Reigns or Brock for Summerslam. Except everyone was legit shocked when Brock beat Taker, everyone was legit shocked at the total clusterfuck of HHH-Sting, everyone was legit shocked at Bryan's elimination and everyone was legit shocked at the finish last night. Why do fans need to pretend that they are so cool that they are above being surprised by the booking? Want to know something else? If the fans weren't such fucking dicks misbehaving and not cheering and booing who they are meant to (like the GREAT marks of old), doing "this is awesome" chants trying to get themselves over, and wanting to be "smart" all the fucking time, maybe the company wouldn't have to resort to all this cutesy booking. They've been forced into it by fans who are, in my view, idiots. Fans who are the product of Russo and kayfabe-breaking horribleness from 15 years ago. But what can they do now? This is what the situation is. The genie can never go back in the bottle. It's this way or the Russo way. What do you want? Only if the dickhead fans booed Reigns after he won, then it wouldn't have been, it would have tanked business. And Brock works limited dates. Rock and a hard place. An alternative was the right thing to do. OR they showed that they listen to fan reactions and that the theory that they will push someone against the audience's will is not true. They've done a fantastic job of saving Reigns from being a total dead duck. Compare where he is now to where he was night after the Rumble. Now he's a guy people want to see, then he was a guy who people thought might have no future. I agree that they need to limit the extent to which the "cash in" angle is used. It did serve a purpose here. I would agree that it's a Deus Ex Machina used to book out of a hole. But it's a nice get out of jail free card for the booker. They probably shouldn't do it for at least another 2 years now though. Yeah I'd agree with that. Jack Tunney should make a ruling that after Rollins has done this, no one should be allowed to do it again and close the loop hole. EDIT: In fact, what would be GREAT is if Rollins himself as chicken-shit heel champ bitched and moaned to The Authority to get this rule changed so no one could do it to him. That would be genius.

Slightly disappointed that Chad is on the Childs / Loss side of the argument, but for what it's worth I do agree that while it is the best idea from a long-term booking point of view, the finish takes snow flakes off the match. It could have been a ****3/4, but as it is it is more like a ****1/2. What I didn't mention last night is that this is also Vince kind of booking himself out of a hole, which you could argue he shouldn't have been in in the first place. But I'd like to think that it will also put paid to the notion that he doesn't listen to the fans. There is no doubt in my mind that this finish and the entire way Reigns has been booked to this point has been strongly influenced by fan reactions. I think Vince or WWE in general are still masterful at working their fans. Everyone was totally worked last night by that main event. And it has hopefully done the job of making Reigns a star in the fans' eyes. A strong match with Bryan followed by a strong match with Brock. That's an example of the company showing that they understand the game has changed a bit and that a top star has to prove themselves through good matches. And they have held back pulling the trigger till he's in a position where they are ready to cheer for him. Surely that's hats off right? As shocking as the booking of the Royal Rumble was this year, can't we give credit where it is due?

The only thing now is that I think this looks weird: World Champ - Seth Rollins U.S. Champ - John Cena IC Champ - Daniel Bryan Arguably one of the riskiest things Vince has ever done. It's the equivalent of making Mr Perfect champ when Hogan and Savage were still around, or something like that. Stuck in the past? It's very very forward-looking if you think about it.

Tim is right though, there weren't that many of those fans to begin with, and now there are. I thought you'd be higher on the idea of great wrestling creating a match people now want to see. Before the match, they were booing Regins.

Yeah but this is wrestling, the most carny form of entertainment in the known universe.

Buy a ticket to see it next time.

Right, so you'd want to see Reigns vs Lesnar the rematch down the line too.

Really? I thought it was a masterclass. Maybe Pat Patterson was in town for more than just a shout out. Think about it. 1. Outcome 1, Reigns wins. Fans say: the company are pushing their man, Bryan, Bryan, wah, wah. 2. Outcome 2, Lesnar wins. Fans say: the title is on a guy who only works three dates a year, wah, wah. 3. Outcome 3, Rollins wins after Lesnar and Reigns have a great match, sense of injustice for Reigns who is now a "great worker" in the fans eyes, sense of injustice for Brock (now a face too) after he lost the title without getting pinned. Plus Orton is another challenger. "Lazy"? I don't think so. The lazy thing to do would have been to give the strap back to Bryan.

I think its pretty smart. Rollins has come in a stole the belt and he's like a Tully or HTM champ. He's got three automatic contenders in Brock and Reigns who he screwed and in Orton who beat him clean earlier. That's three shows to headline right there. Plus after that match, Reigns should have established himself and be way more over with the boo boys now. You know what else? Not a single person talking about Daniel Bryan. I think it's very clever.

Oh yeah easily. I think the best way to think of Taker now is to think of Dick the Bruiser or The Crusher in the mid-80s.

Did they ever reference the fact that IRS melted down the urn before in the build to this?