JerryvonKramer

I listened to this entire show again yesterday, because there was some stuff I missed first time around. Really good stuff, and I'm also wondering if there's any footage of the Rude-Flair stuff. Some of those cards Kris was running down were hilarious. Anyone know what sort of shape Hiro Matsuda was in circa 1987? I literally can't believe they ran with Sullivan vs. Matsuda on top in Greensboro. There must be another story to explain the atrociousness of that card. Kris mentioned in passing that he's planning a two-part look at the decline of JCP. I thought I'd share a show Chad and I did about two years ago on that same topic when we reviewed the Good Old Days doc (second hour): http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-47-jim-crockett-promotions-the-good-old-days/ Super interested in this panel's takes on what factors were to blame primarily and who was to blame primarily. If Kris is planning two parts on that, I can only imagine the depth that's going to be covered in. This show has been like podcast mana for me.

Perhaps a more interesting poll might have been: Vince Sr era Vince Rock n Wrestlng era Vince Attitude era Vince Elder statesman / current Vince

Probably enough time has passed to tell this one: I once blew off dinner with a girl and then dumped her after she gave me grief for it ... to record an episode of Titans. Edit: looking this up, I can date the show. It was Titans #17.

Now now.Let's move on.

In your estimation, did Bock sell tickets?

A lot of hype for Steph recently. When it comes to performance, who is the best McMahon? Note: Vince Sr never had an on camera role.

- People trying to stick up for or justify the seven-man ladder match.

The sheer stupidity of a seven-man ladder match and numerous PWOers more or less chanting "this is awesome" at it.

That one All Japan commentator going apeshit Gordon Solie sitting in a dingy studio discussing wrestling with such gravity that it's like the fate of the world depends on it Kal Rudman, especially when him and Dick Graham go on about how they think a heel is a great guy who they were out having dinner with last night. Flair saying "Wahoo McDaniel" Whenever a stable that includes Arn Anderson are all together and walking towards the ring. Always looks cool as fuck. Heel beatdowns. The different styles of crowds in the 70s and early 80s from territory to territory. Ernie Ladd's "Promises Promises" jacket. Whenever Jesse Ventura gets an idea stuck in his head and won't let it go. I love it when he tries to come back to it even five minutes after the thing happened. The idea of Baron Scicluna vs Dominic Denucci on any random MSG card. They've done it a million times already, no one is particularly bothered about seeing them, no new ideas, but they go to the same old tricks with diminishing returns. And MSG still cheer Denucci like a mutha fucker! Watching 8mm footage and getting glimpses into a lost wrestling world. Whenever anyone really nails a lariat and the person receiving it does a 360 bump. Whenever a heel team (eg Condrey and Eaton) hug each other when they are wimping off in the corner. 70s / early 80s Vince on commentary. Whenever they go to the top ten in early 90s WCW. Whenever Flair takes extra special time out to jaw at a fan, and then goes back to the same fan later after nailing a move or something. Jumbo during his "grumpy" run still doing the fist pump to boos. I might come back to this because I could just keep going and going.

I'd argue that aces have to be babyfaces and draws. In Flair's case, he was both in JCP. In Bock's, I'd argue the ace of that promotion was Verne.

Are heel champions like Flair or Bock really aces?

I'm really against the idea of creating a specifically "old school" forum, the main general forum can just be what it always was, like Crossface said. It's more about putting all the current WWE stuff in one place. Main forum is for "all wrestling ever", including philosophy and whatever else, current for topics specifically pertaining to the booking of the modern product. So essentially, I agree with tim and goc (and Crossface).

Why would that make more sense? I am sad that my campaign has attracted no support.

The recent closing of the mega threads, a move which I don't care about in the least and have no feelings on one way or the other, has led to the general pro wrestling folder being dominated by topics about current WWE. I think there are enough of these topics to warrant an exclusive folder. Not only will this serve as a great way of keeping all that stuff together so that those wishing to discuss Rusev's push or Steve Austin's current relationship with the WWE or other such topics can do so all in one place, but also so that those wishing to avoid such topics entirely can do so too. Collectivisation and containment. Another good reason to do this is that the first page is currently moving too quickly and good topics are getting "lost". Yes, I know it's always possible to just go to page 2, but the reality is that most people don't do that. A current folder would actually be of benefit to everyone. People who want to talk about current WWE can do so safe in the knowledge that El-P or whoever else isn't rolling their eyes at them. People who don't want to talk about it can just avoid that folder. Everyone is happy. This thread is my "campaign" to lobby for such a folder.

Wasn't Batista kind of a rich face? And The Rock.

My understanding was that New York was dead before Rocca, and he brought back the big gates. Speaking of which, was my claim that Vince Sr made bookings for Rocca around the country not quite right?

The phrase "Wrestlemania moment"

The best Ivan I've seen outside of the tag stuff in Crockett is on GCW TV 80-3 demolishing jobbers and having nice ten minute TV matches. From the 70s, he crops up all over the place, but it's hard to get a measure of him, and I'd need to see a lot more. Ivan has admittedly not really been on my to do list for 70s guys. One thing that he does have in his favour is that he is one of very few workers I can think of who went from working as a monster heel in the 60s and early 70s (see Bruno match) to working as a much smaller and lighter guy in the 80s when he was practically a bump machine as anyone who has seen him in Russians matches can attest. There seems to be a bunch of random stuff from IWA out there, and a smattering of stuff on the garbage tapes, and he's on some of those old Florida comps, but the main look we're going to have of him is in the alternative timeline on Titans and then again for his 83 WWF run if and when we ever get there (good chance GWE will be over by then). I think it's easier to make a case for him for the Observer Hall of Fame than I do for a top 100, but I need to see his Backlund matches and how he is in the rest of the 70s footage to make a call. He WAS a very good worker, that much is not in doubt, but there's not many great matches outside of JCP tag stuff that I could point to.

This is really good stuff indikator.

Look, I can't bloody remember beyond the general time period. Clash 4 sticks out because I like that match, but it's far from the only show they were booed on around then. Rock n Rolls got pretty bad reactions before then, and when they came back in 1990 too. I'm not Data from Star Trek, and it's an unreasonable demand to expect me to be. If you want to argue the point that those teams weren't booed, rock on. I don't want a debate, I just wanted to chuck them out as an example.

Alright, what do you want me to say, that the Fantastics weren't getting booed in late 88 and 89? Don't understand the point of arguing.

Watch them in 89. They start getting booed. Actually watch Clash 4.

Crockett fans starting booing all blow job tag teams from about 88 on. First Rock n Rolls, then Fantastics, then Dudes with Attitudes.

Big laugh, women start singing, guitar riff, "Everybody's got a price ..."

One figure I was interested by in that great resource Bix posted, was Fred Kohler in Chicago. He was the man behind wrestling on the DuMont Network as many of you probably know, but what I didn't know is: 1. That Kohler had heat with Sam Muchnick and it seems the two of them were trying to pull the NWA in different directions in the 50s. 2. That Vince Sr. more or less poached the DuMont TV spot in 1955. I've read accounts of Vince Sr. before that claimed he promoted Chicago at some time or another, but that doesn't seem to be true. Essentially, he took the TV spot and made bookings for Buddy Rogers around the country (he'd also book Rocca in a similar way, and later Andre of course), meaning that in some convoluted way he was involved in the promotion of the big Rogers vs. O'Connor match from 1961, but that was a Fred Kohler card and he is generally credited with the gate. I'd always been confused by the Vince Sr - Chicago connection, but it seems that's all there is. 3. He sold his wrestling promotion to Wilbur Snyder and Dick the Bruiser in 1964 and that went on to be WWA. I didn't realise that the WWA had such long roots and that WWA's promotion of Chicago had a direct lineage back to Kohler. I think a guy like Kohler does raise an issue though: do you count his "Fred Kohler Enterprises" as a territory or not? I think the pre-NWA landscape is too scattershot to call anyone who was promoting shows a "territory"