JerryvonKramer

Hey! I never shit on them! In fact I enjoyed the ones I watched. Just questioned the idea they're all time great brawls, mainly due to hundreds of modern japanese and US indy matches I've seen that use pretty much the same idea of Chopman 1 vs Chopman 2 that I don't think it differed from that much. Maybe you'd think all of them are all time great matches like the Evolve tag Hey, I'm just very defensive about my darling Ric you know that. I've talked at length before about "authenticity", but the difference between Flair vs. Garvin and a typical Low-Ki match lies therein. What made this particular Evolve match "authentic" rather than "cosplay" as you put it? For me it was the sheer conviction of Hero's performance. Sometimes guys are so good they can reach through the nightmare post-modern abyss and find a kernal of truth, somehow. Daniel Bryan did it all the time. Besides, from watching that card, Evolve seems to have less of an authenticity problem than certain other indies. The setting is kinda gritty, that particular crowd weren't that smark-bag douche-y, Naylor and Leonard kinda kept kayfabe and didn't openly talk about star ratings on commentary. Seems like Gabe has actually learned something since 2008.

Yeah totally. I reserve the right to up or downgrade any ratings on 2nd, 3rd, 4th viewing. I've also adjusted ratings before now, talked up or talked down after discussing them over with someone else whose takes I really respect. Sometimes people can see stuff you can't. And for me that's one of the key reasons to read or listen to reviews period.

I do not see the primarily goal of any review to be "understanding", that might be the goal of an anthropological project or something like that, but it's not the typical goal of a review. I see reviews as being critically evaluative. Did I like the match and why? And perhaps as a corollarily "how does it compare to other matches I've seen". These are the sorts of questions being answered, and less "why does this crowd do dualling chants?" I think the thing at stake in this sort of criticism is: what does the reviewer value? Over time you might build up an idea of whether or not you can trust that guy's opinion based on the sorts of things they look for, OR at the very least, that you might be interested in what they have to say about a given match. I have always been incredibly up front about what I value and why. Some people like to take note of what I make of things, others don't care about what I have to say about wrestling at all. That's all anyone can do. Put their analysis out there and let it speak for itself. You are never always going to be eye-to-eye with everyone, but looking across a range of different reviewers you can get some sense of whether your values mesh or not ... here are two other reviews of this match: This is the guy who has shit on Flair vs. Garvin matches I love, and who by the same token loves one of my all-time least favourite wrestlers, Antonio Inoki. I've known for some time that GOTNW is one of the guys on the board whose takes I expect to be almost diametrically opposed to mine. He thinks the stuff I love from the NWA in the 80s and AJPW in the 90s is mindless, I think the Gotch-inspired Inoki stuff he venerates is as dull as dishwater, to the point where I look on the time I spent watching long Inoki matches as battle scars. I still have enough interest to read his thoughts on matches, even though there is little hope of us coming togother. But we do get a strong sense of what he values in a review like this. It's not what I value, but it's a different take. Here is Phil S. He and I sometimes agree, sometimes we don't. We share some values, others we don't. But Phil is a guy whose take is always worth considering. I remember some years ago his take on Dustin vs. Blacktop Bully in the truck got me to see that match in a TOTALLY different way, and I enjoyed the match a lot more after that. Reading this review you can see that he liked the match very much but not quite as much as I did. Although in his analysis, you can see some of the possible explainations for why I loved the match so much: look back at my list of 5-star tag matches and they are mostly 90s AJPW ones. To me, this is all you can ask from a critical discourse around wrestling.

Well I did have more context from watching the whole card than just that one match, so I had *some* sense of context. But when it comes to this particular match I think having some exposure to 90s AJPW and to 70s World of Sport meant that I could find my footing a little bit more easily since so much of what these guys do seems to owe directly to their influence. I also think Naylor and Leonard did a pretty great job on commentary of providing contexts for the newcomer. I understood, for example that Hero had been away for a little bit, and that at least 3 of the 4 participants on this tag were "coming back" in some way. So yes, new to this style, but I'm not coming in with a completely blank slate. There's enough commonality with all the wrestling I've ever watched for me to drop a rating on a tag match and say "this is one of the best I've ever seen". I also dropped ** and *1/2 and other ratings on the undercard. I am very very interested to see where this tournament goes and CAN go from here though, since there's a danger of "spunking the load early" with such a phenomenal match in the opening round. AJPW tended to leave the very best matches for the RWTL finals most of the time. --- I feel quite motiviated to catch up on Hero in general though, this is the sort of thing that would make someone want to check out his greatest hits or even complete works.

Listening to Will and Johnny argue on the Reaction show made me think about this. Based on the last few times I've seen them, I feel pretty strongly that it's Charlotte. And if I was booking, she is also who I'd run with as the hottest heel they've had in years.

Haven't been a fan for the duration of their babyface run. Just not my humor. It seems like they sold a lot of tshirts and perhaps cereal boxes. Good for them if so, but the entire routine is not funny or entertaining. I've usually watched their segments through my fingers cringing, but then DX always had that effect on me too. Strokes and folks I guess.

On a slightly different note, back in January I said this about the New Day and various fans got upset, what do people feel now?

The trouble with 90 is tired jaded Ric when down by Herd and it dies reflect in his work and especially in his promos. 90 feels like a year of transition around the world and a wide scale finding of feet.

https://soundcloud.com/prowrestlingonly/sets/wrestling-eye Jim Breaks and Bearcat Wright eps especially recommended.

Elliott, this show actually already exists on the feed. It's called Wrestling Eye and is done by my LFK co-host That Chap Called Allan. He's had guys like Kris and Dylan on, as well as John Lister and others. They are a fantastic listen.

I'm kinda surprised that match hasn't had a bit more hype around it, I went back to the Evolve iPPV thread but there wasn't a lot of talk around Evolve 53. Childs seems to have liked the match. My impression was that it wasn't just a MOTYC but a MOTDC as well as in the conversation for "best tag ever". I will say that the fact it didn't go on last and wasn't for anything that important (just a first-round tag tournament match) makes it one of the most random and incongruous 5-star matches ever for me. I might need to watch it again, because to put this in context, here are some tags I have at 4.75: Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard (3/27/88) Arn Anderson and Larry Zbyszko vs. Ricky Steamboat and Dustin Rhodes (11/19/91) Cowboy Bill Watts & Stagger Lee vs. The Midnight Express (4/22/84) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (8/30/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/17/87) Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (03/13/75) Terry & Dory Funk Jr. vs. The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher (7/15/79) Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89) Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (11/29/89) Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue (09/30/90) Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (05/22/92) Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat (05/25/92) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba (11/27/92) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (06/01/93) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (11/29/96) Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Shiro Koshinaka and Takayuki Iizuka (12/13/90) Atlantis & El Hijo del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera & Lobo Rubio (11/25/83) So it's not a claim I'd want to make lightly that I think this match is better than all of those, the two matches I think about most which are as close to being 5-star as possible while still being 4.75 are the Kikuchi 92 tag and the Steamboat comeback match from Clash 17. Both those matches are built around incredibly hot FIP sequences. My gut instinct was to say that the Sabre Jr FIP sequence in this match from his little WoS-style work over of End's arm to the finish was better than either of those. I'd have to think about "how high" exactly I'd go on this. My other 5-star tags include: Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78) Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (8/31/83) Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu Yoshiaki Yatsu (1/28/86) Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (2/5/87) Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (12/16/88) Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (12/6/89) Manami Toyota and Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki and Dynamite Kansai (AJW 11/26/92) Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (12/3/93) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (05/21/94) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (06/09/95) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (12/06/96) With the exception of the Joshi match there all of those tags took place in AJPW. This rating therefore puts me in the position of saying "this is the best tag match in US history that I've seen". So I need to think about the magnitude of that claim, but thinking over it this morning, I feel like I want to stand by it.

I saw this on twitter yesterday and thought it would make a topic for here. I don't have a clear answer since I'm trying to square this with my own stance that context matters and there can be no universal standard. But my gut instinct says that I don't want this to be right.

Drew Galloway is in the ring and his tag partner tonight Johnny Gargano is late, he's still making his way from another show, so they are switching the order of the matches. That sort of thing could look very two bit, but he manages to get away with it through sheer Irish charm. Heroes Eventually Die vs. Sami Callihan and Zack Sabre Jr I do hope that's a deliberate Aquemini reference there. For some reason the crowd chose this moment to go full smark, oh well, they were good to this point and these are some big names in this scene. They promptly bust out "this is awesome" chants after a release offer suplex about six or seven minutes in. Just when it starts threatening to be a mindless but fun spotfest, Sabre does an absolutely sick looking kick to hyper extend Tommy End's arm and him going to work on this arm is World of Sport poetry. Even a little bit of Jim Breaks in there with the twisting of the wrist. Hero kicks him straight three times too. And holy shit the double team spot from Hero and End where they take his legs and smash his head as he just crumples is just an awesome visual. Never seen that before, exceptionally awesome spot. And it deserves so much more than these duelling chants from this crowd that seems like it should know better. Hero is just absolutely incredible here. Velocity of the chops, elbows and punches is insane. And the piledriver he hits is Backlund sick. Sabre has taken a proper pummelling here. And again, fucking hell. Teases the piledriver from the top, surely dear god no. Callihan has seen enough and runs to make the save. Manages to hit a power bomb as well as a tope to keep End from interfering. Hero goes for a Gotch piledriver but it is countered by Sabre into a guillotine choke, countered into a suplex attempt countered into something else countered into a neckbreaker attempt then a lariat attempt countered into a cross armbreaker. Jesus what a sequence. Double stomp from the top by End hurts Sabre's leg. Elbow and kick combo from Hero and End finally put Sabre out of his misery. Ummmm ... what the fuck? This is one of the best matches of all time and it's just buried here randomly as the semi-main of this random Evolve card in the first round of a tag title tournament? Why? How? I guess it doesn't matter cos I can honestly say this is one of the best tag matches I've ever seen. There were transcendent sequences in this match and virtually everything from the moment Sabre takes over on End's arm to the finish is of the highest possible standard. Where the hell did this come from? *****

Fred Yehi vs. Tracy Williams When will someone tell wrestlers that "Tracy" is a girl's name? Commentators talking about Williams seeing himself as a "reactive wrestler" is interesting, that was kind of Jack Brisco's deal in the 70s, where Solie and co talk him up as a "defensive champion" whose game is all about know how and anticipation. Neat wrinkle to see something similar here although I'm guessing the reference points are more likely to be MMA than Florida in the 70s. But then again hearing them talking about "the roots of pro wrestling" maybe not. Anyway, it's quite cool. Naylor with a random Pedro Morales name check on a backbreaker. Leonard said he saw him at the garden in the 70s. Wow, that is cool. Still fuck you Pedro, I won't forgive the Muraco matches now or ever. These guys are clearly a cut above everyone else on this card so far. Yehi's offense is cool, Williams is stiff and works proper rugged mainly, shades of Regal in a way. They can go on the mat as well as trading strikes and throws. Just very good pro wrestling. I like it a lot. Some good intensity and fire in the rivalry too. Easily, and I mean easily better than anything last night on WWE's Hell in a Cell, apart from the women's match. These guys pasted the shit out of each other, actually reminded me of Regal in Japan if anything. Awesome. I could get into this stuff in a hurry. ****

Jason Cade vs. Joe Coleman Just some spotty undercard stuff. Nothing much to see here. Good incidental post-match selling of ribs. *1/2 Peter Kasaa vs. Matt Riddle If only Riddle had been around in 1992, Vince could have picked him up and made him The Riddler! Tag-team with Repo Man. Him coming out to Warren G immediately puts him over with me. Riddle looks like a cross between a Von Erich brother and PWO's very own Marty Sleeze. one of them dames was sexy as hell I said "ooo I like your size." she said "my car's broke down and you seem real nice, would ya let me ride?" I got a car full of girls and it's going real swell the next stop is the Eastside Motelllllllllll G Funk era > Nu metal era. Fact. Naylor just made the Von Erich comparison too. Great minds bro. Then he went and compared Kasaa to Billy Jack Haynes, ha ha. The other commentator is Lenny Leonard. They do a good job of talking about the contrasting styles of these two guys. If Riddle is like any of the Von Erichs in his work it's Kevin. Seems to be a lot of MMA influence in this match with the sudden submissions and so on. Was what it was. I quite like the commentators sticking to kayfabe terminology while putting over Riddle, very endearing to me. Leonard's turn of phrase has a tiny bit of Mooney in there. Take for example a phrase like "especially if he continues his winning ways", straight out of the Sean playbook. ** Ethan Page vs. PJ Black I will say that the production values on the entrances and the choice of music has been a LOT better than the opening hype package. But my point still stands on that since first impressions count. And presumably that package was there to encourage PPV buys. I've got to give it Naylor and Leonard talking about rule breakers and so on. The commentary has been excellent. Just a great job of calling these matches, they show they are knowledgable without much smark and they maintain all these kayfabe tropes. So important. I've never been in any doubt watching about who these guys are and where they are on the card, and what alignment they are. Refreshing. Decent enough but again they did too much for what this was. Interesting angle where Page won't accept the victory because the foot was under the rope, which allows Black to pick up a flash pin. ** Dan Barry and Bill Carr vs. Rocky Romero and Trent Baretta After my comments earlier about feeling stuck in 2003, since the card has actually been going on these guys mostly seem cool. Theme music for heels is awesome. Roppongi Vice are full of Midnight Express stooge spots which is nice to see. They look a very polished team. Barry seems like he has a bit more indie spottiness about him, but Carr is built, dresses and seems to work like Big Bubba (Bossman). Generally the heels seem the better workers. They aren't rushing. Pace is methodical. Good character work stooging and bumping when faces on top, and effective working the heat sequence once they turn it around. As a style I have to say this is way more watchable than typical WWE stuff. They could probably cut out some of the moonsaults, etc, but this is very solid wrestling. This was the best match so far. ***1/2 Tea break.

I might not make it all the way through this card tonight, but I might as well make a start. Will not be doing full play by play calls, just jotting observations here and there and leaving ratings. Evolve 53 (22/1/16) Just want to pause right away to mention that the choice of music right at the start here is one of the exact reasons that I don't typically love modern stuff, it just seems so stuck in the early 00s and not just that but a particular version of the early 00s imagined by shitty nu metal bands. I mean fuck is anything worse? Imagine being stuck in the cultural moment of Limp Bizkit. The opening of this show with the promos and the music is just amateurish in a way that is both embarrassing and desperately uncool. This is not an attempt to bury Evolve right out of the gate, not at all, but just a general guideline to what I mean when I say I don't watch because of "presentational elements". Everything about it just screams "welcome back to 2003", and literally the least cool parts of 2003. Fuck me. I'm going to have to fast forward past all this crap. I mean come on, even the very very grimiest territories that goc pimps from 1983 had better production values than this. -10/10 on that front. Gabe, come on dude, you must know this won't do. If anyone wonders why Evolve don't draw, it's all here. Nothing to do with the wrestling or match quality, everything to do with this. Let's skip to show. Timothy Thatcher comes out now. He can't wrestle cos he's injured. Couple of plus points for him: seems to use beard conditioner and beard oil. More than I can say for Kevin Owens. Well kept beard. Premier Athlete Tagteam guys come out now. Some decent heeling from them as they pick on some dweeb in the crowd. Overall the guys did well considering the low rent conditions. British female ring announcer. Would. Same goes for one of the valets, not the other one. The Bravado Brothers vs. Premier Athlete Brand Huge amount of Misawa elbows in the early going, as well as reverse knife edges. Wear your influences on your sleeve I suppose. Quick note on the announcing, sounds good to me. Is that Naylor? Sounds like Naylor. They keep focused on key angles going on right now, provide some history on the guys, call the action. Just solid announcing, which is a nice surprise. Nothing smarky so far. Work has some commitment to face and heel dynamics, especially with the vocal valets. That said, these guys seem to be working awfully hard for what is an opener. The work is good though, it's nice crunchy action, all neckbreakers and Dory Funk uppercuts and Misawa elbows. Crowd is also pretty well behaved. I mean there doesn't seem more than hundred or so people there, closer to a Techwood studio setting than anything else. But yet to hear any BS from them. Heels seem like the better and more seasoned workers to me. Don't rush and hit their stuff with impact. I think they probably did too much here for a 12-minute opener, and so the full force of the stuff they were doing was lost a bit. But generally the style is very accessible so far. And this was good solid stuff, I just wish they weren't working it like it was Misawa vs Kobashi at the Tokyo Dome. Context and card placement do matter. *** More to follow.

I had it above Sasha vs. Bayley as a basis of comparison.

That was a tougher call, but I kinda figured that babyface Memphis Lawler would have the book, and Benoit never had a problem putting anyone over.

Looking at that list, there seems a distinct lack of Eddie to me. I think a good comparison point for Charlotte / Sasha last night is Eddie Guerrero vs. Brock Lesnar (2/15/04). I had that at ****1/2 but high end for that rating, and I think the match last night is right around there. 4.5 knocking on the door of 4.75.

Top 10 seems a bit like hyberbole, I'm not sure it would touch these: Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pat Patterson (5/4/81) Sgt. Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik (6/1/84) Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (3/20/94) Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin (3/23/97) John Cena vs. Justin Bradshaw Layfield (5/22/05) John Cena vs. Umaga (01/28/07) John Cena vs Brock Lesnar (4/29/12) Roman Reigns vs. Brock Lesnar (3/29/15) Bob Backlund vs. Ken Patera (5/19/80) Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81) Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (3/29/87) Brock Lesnar vs. The Undertaker (10/20/02) Randy Orton vs. Mick Foley (4/18/04) Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns vs. Dean Ambrose (2/21/16) You'd probably stick one of the Tito / Greg matches in there too and if you held a gun to my head probably also HBK / Razor from Mania X. I'd have it above Ted / Savage MSG though, which made my top 100 matches for the WTBBP special when we did it. Would also have it above Flair / Savage from Mania 8.

Matt, I thought the actual bump Sasha took on the injury spot was sick. I mean get what you're saying, but she took that in such a way that it did look like it could cause injury. I kind of agree with you on long-term selling, I also didn't think Bayley's was up to much earlier in the card, but I think Charlotte's performance and both of their overness was enough to mask some of the slight problems on Sasha's end. I mean this is one of those areas where I do think the crowd matters a bit. Real heat and overness can cover up some of the cracks sometimes I think. You might disagree, but I thought if nothing else the main event last night was proof that real commitment to face / heel dyanmics, and not breaking kayfabe (just within the body of the match itself), can still work as if it were 1986 even in today's jaded atmosphere.

Yeah something like that. I think what I really had in mind was authenticity. Like he said, people know if you are being fake. I don't do any gimmicks, I mean I really do think Jesse Ventura is the best colour man or Bob Backlund doesn't sell enough (or whatever it is) and things flow naturally from that point. And it has to come from a real place. I guess at some level I think that if you are *trying* to perform or get yourself over, it will end up actually being a hindrance. It's that Stanislavski / method acting thing of things coming from somewhere that is true rather than somewhere that isn't. "Energy" is an interesting one. I’d ask what kind of energy is what? Marty who co-hosts Tag Teams Back Again has great up-tempo energy. I think he's probably an energetic guy in real life, and I sometimes wonder if he's on coke. But then Johnny has a completely different vibe and energy, he's funny, he does voices, and jokes I've heard a 100 (a 1000?) times now. But I can't do up-tempo energy or funny voices, it just isn't me y'know, and if I tried to do a show trying to ape either Marty or Johnny it would be a disaster. I just think things like personality and so on come out over the course of talking about things you are passionate about. Like having got to know Chad basically in real tim on-air over the past four years, I don't every think he was necessarily thinking about getting himself over or "performing", but I can still remember his legitimate bewilderment at Sting and that fucking magic act during Black Scorpion angle, or his completely beautiful love letter to Misawa / Kobashi from the GWE show. That's just who he is y'know. I guess I just have some faith that good things will naturally follow from good things. And worrying about “getting over” will have the opposite effect. Having listened a few times to Danny’s show, the two things I wonder about are whether he’d benefit from a co-host with whom he can build up chemistry over time (can be tough doing shows with people you’ve just met), and also whether he’d benefit from a tighter focus than whatever is going on right now – I mean there you are literally competing with Meltzer and a 1000 other shows, including just in our circle, Pete’s This Week in Wrestling on PWO feed and the PTBN’s Clotheslines and Headlines show as well as Main Event, and all of those are presented by guys who largely “got over” initially on other shows. I can see from your recent shows just going on YouTube plays that the one talking Hall of Fame with Joe Gagne got more than ten times the numbers the other ones did, why do you think that is? It’s not just that Joe is a legend (although that helps), it’s also cos not many HoF shows have even been done this year. Sometimes it’s not what everyone is talking about, it’s what no one is talking about but should be. I mean ... I've made a show recently that largely relies on talking about Virgil circa 1993 and people have listened to it, and not just one or two, but quite a few. I do think that filling unexpected niches has a track record of bringing people in, at least within our extended bubble.

You're a go go go worker Lanza