JerryvonKramer

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-89-wcw-new-japan-super-show-93/ After going through a few announcements involving changes to the feed, pilot season, new shows and various guest spots, Chad and Parv are back to look at the third and final iteration of the WCW / New Japan Supershow which took place on January 4th 93, but did not air until March (so no Observer roundup this time). [0:23:23] Review of WCW / New Japan Supershow 93, including: Ultimo Dragon botchmania, the political career of Ludwig Borga, Ron Simmons post-title run, Mr. Saito at 51, Parv's man-love for Hiroshi Hase, and the question on everyone's lips ... did JR and Tony Schiavone really go out and have sushi during this show? [1:15:01] End of show awards Secret link:

That's because I did review it earlier in the thread ... way back. See here: I realise me dropping the big 5 on 6/8/00 puts me in a minority.

Personally I can't wait to watch it. I think I ranked Kobashi #5 for GWE based very heavily on AJPW work (I did watch some NOAH stuff here and there), so if I end up loving this whole run he may realistically have a shot at leap-frogging Misawa, Jumbo and maybe even Funk and Flair in my overall standings. Not saying he will, but it is possible. The advantage he has over virtually everyone is, as I've said, being the most talented guy ever to step in the ring.

When you say "can actually wrestle", do you mean the hold-counter-hold stuff I'd usually gloss in my reviews as "some amateur stuff now"? I tend towards seeing guys like Thesz or Inoki as ideologues hanging on to some weird dream of purism, which now gets its expression in 2016 in statements like that. What do you make of Kurt Angle OJ?

How much do you think that the biggest stars of that era were more people like Wild Bull Curry or Fred Blassie rather than Thesz who was just about the idea of the title and the champ? One thing I've been interested in also is how Sam Muchnick wouldn't book Abby because he was "a gimmick" but frequently booked Dick the Bruiser. Can a guy like The Bruiser be seen as a different type of legit? Surely a bit of him in Harley too.

Sip of sparkling water for the working man.

The last "crafty" champ was Brisco, although he was more babyface than Thesz. If you watch what footage of Terry Funk there was from his run, he worked more like Race and Flair. I've seen old-time guys level the "degeneracy" talking point at Funk too, that he was too cartoony, that he brought down the seriousness of the title match, that he worked too weak and bitched etc., etc. Times change, and tastes change. The touchstone for Thesz, O'Connor, Kiniski, Dory and Brisco was legitimacy and wrestling as real sport, the touchstone for Funk, Race and Flair was to give people a great night out and be value for money entertainment. I find watching 1950s Thesz stuff hard going, a 50+ minute match that never gets off the mat is hard going. Given that there is a ton of footage out there from Chicago and elsewhere from that period that is seldom discussed here, I'm guessing a lot of people feel the same way. Nobody likes Dory vs. Terry from 81. I kinda like workrate, action, and big performances. Even with someone like Dory, the long mat classics with Inoki put me to sleep, it's all-action Dory I like. Workrate absolutely remains something I value. However workrate =\= stupid or lacking in psychology. We had a discussion around what I've come to see as completely overplayed talking points around "excess" here, would be interested in your takes, especially around the relationship between character and psychology: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/?p=5774144

Episode 9: http://placetobenation.com/letters-from-kayfabe-9/ Allan and Parv return for another week of cheesy fun. 1. The Mailbag: The changing faces of Lord Al on commentary / WWF in Japan 90-1 / Big Bully Busick 2. The Event Center with JT Rozzero: Bret Hart vs. The Mountie on Superstars 3. The Long Topic: The Presidential Decisions of Jack Tunney, Part 1: 1984-90 4. WWF Magazine corner: 1987 Man or Woman of the Year To write in to the mailbag, tweet @allan_cheapshot or @JerryvonK Grab the mag: https://www.sendspace.com/file/rbid3g

Matt go back a few pages, people provided some good lists and they are the ones I'll be going off. In time, I intend on watching all of them and in order. Next one is Misawa vs Kobashi from 03.

I just went and had a little look and Bock doesn't lose, it's an over-the-top-rope DQ. Ha never change Verne. They got a huge crowd for that show though.

Hansen v. Bock from Wrestlerock is as close to the feel of Starrcade 93 as AWA could possibly get I recall liking that match a good bit, 4.5 rating, actually higher to where I've ever had Flair vs. Vader. But I don't think it has the heightened emotion. Bock losing to Hansen and cutting a promo going on about the "championship committee" or whatever isn't quite in the same ballpark as the story going into Starrcade 93 or the end of that match. I'll leave it for people to rewatch the two matches to compare.

Nigel McGuinness vs KENTA (3/21/09) This is from ROH. Hammerstein Ballroom, classic wrestling venue. Proper heel heat and mannerisms for McGuinness in introductions, good start. It's his 37th title defence. McGuinnes has both arms out here due to torn biceps. I'm surprised Jack Tunney even sanctioned this one. He has to rely on things like head butts for his offense and Kenta can go to the arms at any moment to cut him off. I am assuming that McGuinness was legit injured, so if it was at all a long-term sell job it was a great and super consistent one, but legit injury right? I really struggled to get into this. I think McGuinness was SO injured that I wasn't buying the narrative of the match. I mean, for someone who had no arms he spent an awful lot of time on top. From the story this match told, I'm meant to believe that Kenta has the toughness of a manager, and McGuinness beat him with literary both arms tied behind his back. Just seems like a burial of Kenta to me. This also lacked a lot in atmosphere. I mean they are in New York in a venue we know from history can absolutely rock when it wants to, but here everything felt flat and sterile. Crowd never got going. I liked Lenny Leonard on commentary for the Evolve show I watched, but here in ROH with Prazak it's all this "watch this match of the year contender" stuff in front of a crowd who seemed to be role-playing the stereotype of a quiet 70s Japanese crowd. OR these guys just weren't that over. In terms of selling the injury and working around the limitations of having no arms, it's an interesting performance from McGuinness, but I think I wanted Kenta to do more interesting stuff going to work on it. This is where a Hiroshi Hase would really earn his money destroying an arm, but Kenta didn't seem to know how to work it. An injury almost imposes psychology on a match, but I felt like Kenta was trying somehow just to have his normal match despite that. Okay, fine kick him or stomp on the leg, fine, but how about throwing in an arm drag or a full arm drag and twist or a hammerlock or something like that. I just feel like the move selection was off. If nothing else it's just such a wasted opportunity. Disappointing. **1/2

The thing is, it goes to things that are beyond what is fair to the wrestlers. In ROH in 2006, it's commentators crowing about Match of the Years and watching a five-star classic as you are watching the match. And some of that doesn't come down to much more than maintaining kayfabe vs. not. Like Jesse Ventura or Jim Ross would often mark for classics as they were happening. You can tell that they switch into another gear and are calling stuff that they think -- non-kayfabe wise -- is great wrestling. But it will come out with them saying stuff like "I have to say -- and I don't always agree with the actions of wrestler X -- but this has been a tremendous match". Something like that. Here I've talked about commentary which has nothing to do with the guys in the ring, but it has a massive impact on my investment one way or the other. EVERYTHING about ROH in that period is about saying "these guys are great wrestlers and they are going to put on a classic for YOU, aren't you lucky?" I mean I still gave it **** not *, which is a recognition of very good work in a vacuum, but it's inextricably tainted by super-indy context for me. And that's nothing to do with Bryan or Kenta, although I do think they were asked to perform (and indeed did deliver) a made-to-order MOTYC here.

I think the point I'm making more is the relationship between the character and the work and what it leads guys to do in matches. Kobashi for example, with his character -- all guts and glory, heart on his sleeve, giving 110% in all he does, etc. -- almost has to be excessive. It is who he is, and it plays an inextricable part of the storylines within the matches. Some sort of recognition of that does something to cushion, at least, against claims that he's just this stupid worker who always does too much. Him doing too much is actually part of the psychology, in the same way as Bock outsmarting opponents, Andre relying on his superior size and the perception of his strength, or whatever. I think you have to recognise it, and wrestling is enriched by it. If you see Dory through the eyes of Gordon Solie ... the chessmaster, the cool, calcuated champ ... his matches come more alive because of it. Same with basically anyone.

I stumbled on this review I wrote back in February and I think it highlights some of my general concerns around "authenticity". "Cosplay" is not a term I use typically, mainly because I associate it with the people who dress up like Lord of the Rings characters in the board-game conventions I attend.

Bock also could not have gone on the character arch from Steamboat feud to Funk feud in 89. Again, I'm not sure his character (kayfabe-wise) had the range to make both of them work and fire on all cylinders. Like the Larry Z stuff was fun, it was great for what it was, but it wasn't Flair vs. Funk and lacked the same level of heightened emotion that send that feud over the edge. Again, not a knock on Bock per se, there are not more than a handful of guys in history to have the character range that Ric does. But it's an example again of how standard narratives around Bock being versatile and smart and Ric being limited and dumb are much, much overplayed when you actually start analyse the material, and go beyond match mechanics. And I don't think it's "nonsense" to say that. Anyway, later on I'm going to watch McGunness vs. KENTA, my prior experiences with both guys were seeing them vs. Daniel Bryan, and the McGuinness match I gave 4.75. After that, I'm finally going to sit down and watch Misawa vs. Kobashi '03, spurred on mainly by Chad's analysis on the recent show and that injury comeback tag I watched from last night.

I'd love to see a breakdown of Bock that has something like the depth of the four faces. I'm not sure that Bock was put in positions to even have them because he was a pure heel. Babyface Bock was just heel Bock who was cheered, whereas Babyface Flair was a genuine hero to a whole area. I'll just say it: I don't think Bock could have done Starrcade 93. It would never have worked, the emotion wouldn't have been there. He didn't have the range in his character to make it work.

Part of my personal frustration with mid-late 90s AJPW is just how good and smart they are, with an attention to detail to very small things that can have huge emotional impacts within a match and over matches. There are so many specific elements that are completely down my alley and better and more layered than any other attempt at them I've come across. Then, they just go on too far with too much and lose me and it's much worse than if the match was terrible to begin with. It's, in part, why I gravitate towards Taue, because his physical limitations meant that he could only go so far and he was still awash in the general style and everything else. It doesn't mean his input is better necessarily but that I am more comfortable with his output. It's not a very good argument for him as a better wrestler (he probably wasn't), but it's the argument for him having matches that I'm happier watching. I also recognize my lack of breadth of watching, so I'm not a particularly loud voice on this topic. I should check out mid-2000s Kobashi at some point. Someone suggest me a few specific matches I'd probably be high on? A very interesting side-topic that came out of Chad's discussion with Quentin on Psychology is Dead is the possible uses of "excess" in storytelling. That excess is in someway not only an intrinsic part of Kobashi's character but also one of his fatal flaws like Icarus trying to fly to the sun and having his wings melted every time. It's also a lesson that he (the kayfabe character) consistently fails to learn from charging into Stan Hansen in the early 90s and getting himself near killed, to his battles with Misawa and others. All heart, all guts, all the time, and so "winding it back" isn't part of his role or who he is meant to be portraying. I've said this before but Nick Bockwinkel's character was "smart guy", "wily vet", "sneaky champ", when THAT's your character then of course a lot of stuff you do is going to "smart". But Kobashi didn't have that character. Ric didn't either, but I don't think there are four faces of Bock like there are four faces of Flair ... from a certain perspective Bock is more one dimensional in his actual character work than Flair is. I'm not picking on Bock per se, I mean I had him in my top 10 for GWE, but he's the flag bearer for "psychology", and Flair and Kobashi are the routine whipping boys, but I think the analysis isn't really deep enough in any of the three cases. Bock does MICRO psychology very well, Flair and Kobashi, both I think, excel at layered match-on-match stuff and what I'm going to call "deep character". And hubristic excess is a part of both of those characters for different reasons. You've talked a lot about "purpose" and "meaning", what about cases where the correct artistic choice is something that is over the top or excessive to get a certain idea across? I just think the talking point is completely overplayed as criticism, to the point where I think venerating Taue out of the four pillars for doing more with less has become an eye-rolling cliche. Not a shot at Matt or anyone in particular, but I don't see the talk around that as being particularly enlightening at this point.

Delighted that these two new show are on the feed. Military Industrial Suplex is pretty thought provoking at times, and both of those guys have cool voices. They discuss a lot of stuff that you won't hear anywhere else, wrestling in its socio-political contexts basically. Psychology is Dead is a great show as well, deep diving on psychology of various things. Quentin has a cool voice too. ANYONE who is a fan of AJPW owes it to themselves to listen to the latest ep to hear Chad talk Misawa vs. Kobashi over the years. I'm not sure there's a human being on earth who has thought more deeply about that feud.

Kobashi was out with a knee injury between 12/23/00 and this match. Well, injury sounds a bit like the wrong term, his knees were basically gone so he took off 14 months and went through multiple surgeries. In this match he went too far and had to take another five months off. Yeah there was a pretty handy video package telling the story before. Learning that he had to take another five months off doesn't make me think he was stupid by the way, it just makes me think "bless him" for working that hard in the match, he was in overdrive.

Well, yes, that too.

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama & Yuji Nagata (02/17/02) Kobashi is ridiculously over here. Seems like he'd just comeback from a big injury. It's kind of interesting to see Misawa so downplayed and second fiddle here. Crowd are just pumped to see Kobashi vs. Akiyama. He might work a big dumb style that people want to turn their noses up at, but -- and I've said this before -- Kobashi in terms of pure ability is the greatest ever to lace them up: the best big bumper, the best big seller, the best face in peril, the best on offense. I mean, this isn't an all-time match or anything like that. But by god does he put his heart and soul into every damn thing he does here. Every chop, every suplex, every bump, every moment where he cries out in pain selling his injured leg. If he was in a computer game or top trumps, he'd be the guy with 10/10 across the board in every stat. As for everyone else, they were in this match too, just about. Match was at its best when Akiyama and Nagata took the shortcuts to the injured leg and put Kobashi in agony. Misawa honestly feels like he phoned this one in, as was his want in many of the big tags. For me though, this is something I'd show someone to demonstrate what amazing all around work ethic can look like. Kurt Angle had a great work ethic when it came to bumping and throwing suplexes, but he'd forget to sell. Chris Benoit had a great work ethic too, but he'd forget to emote. Even Ric Flair -- the guy with the greatest work ethic of them all -- would often forget to throw in cool offense. Not so Kobashi. Every single category is a 10 verging on 11. ****

My set is still not here, but I've seen this match already. Funks have a MUCH better match than this with Roadies in AJPW in 86, for my money the best Road Warriors match ever. My review of the AJ match from Learning to Love Dory: Review of this match:

So why can't he lower the rating for the WWE matches?

The smart line of enquiry here would be to ask something like "weren't Flair and Garvin doing Wahoo McDaniel cosplay anyway?" Something like that. I think that's an interesting question to consider.