JerryvonKramer

When I watch Eddie tagging with Art Barr in Mexico all it really ends up doing is confirming that I think Eddie is a great worker... and further highlighting what I see as deficiencies in the style as everyone else looks rubbish by comparison. Just telling you the truth of how I process it. And I can't be the only one.

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame. Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it? I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible. The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA. Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level. I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others. I think it's not just the style but the world or "universe". The worlds of NWA, AWA, Mid-South, AJPW, NJPW, even Memphis and Puerto Rico are all interconnected, part of the same universe. Like DC comics or something. Each promotion is like a title within an overarching universe. I guess in this analogy WWE would be Marvel, especially after Vince hermetically sealed it off. Flair in 91-2 is a huge crossover event. NWO is an even bigger one. Lucha and WOS and Wanz don't belong in these universes, they are like I dunno Valiant comics, whatever, some unconnected publication. That's the easiest way I can think to explain why they get less attention typically -- beyond just the style / taste stuff we've talked about.

I think what is a lot more interesting is how he came to similar conclusions to a lot of other people in the thread re: lucha. It's almost like there's a common root cause ...

I think maybe "non-stickability" is something. I was relatively high on a lot of 80s Lucha set stuff but had very little desire to carry on, doesn't stick for some reason. It's like "that was a good match", but it feels ephemeral. Hard to put one's finger on, but I guess it really comes down to me feeling like not a lot matters. Trios stuff is too chaotic generally. Title matches have too much cooperative looking mat work, like I just don't and can't care about the intricate stuff, it's OJ's bag. Brawls suffer from 2/3 structure and sudden falls that always feel anti-climactic. So I can watch two hours of this stuff and even dig some of it, and then tomorrow couldn't remember a single thing. Aaaqq

I'm standing by that post because the people who "dismiss lucha" have come to the conclusion that they think it mostly sucks. It's just a basic truism. You might say the same thing about AJ goc, at some level you think it sucks, and seem to spend a lot of time mocking it. People don't react much though cos the narrative of AJ being "the best" is pretty well worn and they feel pretty secure in their views, maybe Lucha feels more fragile I dunno, but most of the time most non-fans are gonna ignore it not be mocking it or whatever.

Now GWE is over I don't see any real stakes in why anyone would do this. And also I think people generally just keep themselves to themselves. My sense both here and on Twitter is that there's a culture that has developed in which people aren't allowed to dislike anything. We can't all like all of the things. People hate stuff I love and are vocal about it (especially 80s-early 90s WWF) and I'm cool with that. But for some reason people get more defensive if they see someone saying "Lucha sucks". Yet many of the same people routinely trash things they don't value. Dragon gate is a case in point. I gave one DG match a pretty positive review and it's brought up as a knock against me months later ... That's what I see.

The difference being is people who like Memphis and Lucha did not think all the other styles suck, while people who like the other 4 think lucha and sometimes Memphis suck. Why is that? That is why I am trying to figure out. The idea that Crockett or AJPW don't get push back from fans of the other four is pretty laughable.

He has crossover appeal beyond his genre. I mean I have no great love for NJ juniors but Liger transcends that genre. Not a hard thing to say.

Herodes, the most in-depth conversation you could hope to have on this is to look at styles and tastes. I've noticed cross over points over the years. Not hard and fast rules but general trends: Guys big on Crockett are likely also to be high on AJPW Guys big on NJPW are likely also to be high on shoot style. Guys big on Memphis are likely also to be high on Lucha. Some guys like all six, some less. But it's more to do with the style than anything else.

Some questions: - Is it racist to not like tacos? - Was Giant Baba a pawn of American cultural imperialism? - When I played on my Nintendo as a kid, was I a victim of Japanese imperialism? I mean, god, what is this? I don't like floaty armdrags and like to see belly-to-back suplexes hit like death. I don't see a single reason to complicate that picture.

There may be cultural reasons why Japanese wrestling connects with me specifically (or anyone else) than does lucha, but it would probably have more to do with the fact that Britain and Japan probably have more cultural cross-over points than do Britain and Mexico. I suspect, though, that the reasons are just a lot less complicated than this. I like grown men hitting each other very hard in the chest and maybe doing a suplex or two. Puro gives me that and lucha doesn't. Sometimes the answers aren't very complex.

Dismiss all you want, call "SJW-ism" what you want I've given up looking for an acceptable label, it's a cancerous form of thinking for which I have zero time and even less patience. The Japanese adopted the form, so what? Americans were heels in Japan post-WW2 for obvious reasons. The Funks have talked about how with the older generation, there was mutual animosity and genuine hatred between Japanese and Americans. It figures, they were at war. People did nasty things on both sides. The atrocity of Hiroshima and so on also. That stuff isn't going to fade easily. But to call the Japanese appropriation of an American form as a form of imperialism is ... just stupid. Nothing to do with it. JWA made money. NJPW and AJPW both made money. They were in the business of making money. If they were doing that by pumping WWF straight into Japanese households, you might have a point, but they didn't. They made unmistakably Japanese stuff for a Japanese market. Just like World of Sport is unmistakably British, and Lucha is unmistakably Mexican, etc. etc. Wrestling by its nature has a habit of reflecting the character and values of its host nation. The idea that Gotch or Thesz were importing "hegemony" is just a load of old wank and nothing else. That EVIL Rikidozan!!! What a terrible man hoisting this American form onto the innocent and unsuspecting Japanese! Talking total crap.

It's not anti-intellectual to mock the idea that a suplex is a form American imperialism or that a reverse knife edge is symbolic of Japanese cultural capitulation post-Hiroshima. These claims are absurd and someone needs to tell you that they are. Say stupid shit and expect to get called out for it. Tis the way of the world.

Why are you falling back on the "personal taste" argument now? You're the one who came blazing into this thread with your hot take that "lucha mostly sucks" instead of saying there was any personal taste involved. The question asked was "Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?" My answer was "it's cos lucha mostly sucks" (clearly an opinion).

Just comes down to what you like, it is what it is. I don't like lucha and I don't like shoot style. You don't like puro. The world keeps turning.

For me it means floaty dance wrestling in which nothing makes much sense and moves lack impact.

The thing that makes Negro Casas great is that he doesn't wrestle like a luchadore, ditto Mocha Cota and other Lucha people I like.

For me it boils down to the fact that Lucha mostly sucks.

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrestling-74-christmas-special-great-talkers-of-the-1970s/ Parv, Johnny, Pete and Kelly are in festive mood, gathered to celebrate the great talkers of the 1970s! Open up the wrapper to see who is discussed inside.

http://placetobenation.com/letters-from-kayfabe-14-with-chris-hero/ Allan and Parv welcome a very special guest, Chris Hero, to take a dip in the bulging sack. 1. The Mailbag: Johnny Polo / First Vince "Cartoon" wrestler / Pro-USA Nikolai Volkoff in 1990 2. The Event Center with JT Rozzero: Sunny's birthday 3. The Long Topic: Ranking the different world title belts 4. Chris Hero picks his all-time wrestler and favourite opponent

All it is mate is that the mute button doesn't work if you are the one recording the show, so if you are the input mic, you can't mute via Skype.

I picture Inoki putting some poor fuck he hasn't given anything to in an octopus with me passed out on the sofa, drool starting to run out of the side of my mouth.

Additional reading from the archives: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/13259-the-significance-of-a-big-loss/

Spinner belt

Since Inoki drew the answer has to be no.