JerryvonKramer

You should have Will on every week. Whatever happened to Good Will Wrestling? You don't need Naylor, Will, get someone else in! I had to stop this half way through because I don't want to spoil All Japan. This HAS inspired me to get back to it asap. I've had a stupidly busy couple of months finishing a book, busy at work etc, but December is going to be ALL JAPAN MONTH. I am determined to get a ballot in. Excited to get back to it, after burning out.

All the talk of Tito recently has made me think more about the role of the JTTS. Now typically, this guy was not a scrub, but a "name" who had been in the game for a long time winding down his career putting over younger guys: Tito in 93 Greg Valentine in WCW Virgil's entire career after the DiBiase feud Iron Sheik as Col. Mustafa Hercules after the 1980s Dino Bravo in 91/2 Terry Taylor in most of his major fed incarnations Nikolai Volkoff in 1994 Ronnie Garvin in most of his WWF run You get the picture. Now, I've often wondered about what is THE POINT of having this lower midcard level? It sort of makes sense if you book it like so: Show 1: Greg Valentine over jobber Same show: Up and comer over jobber Next week: Up and comer over Greg Valentine But so many times, that never happened. The JTTS would often NOT get any jobber matches. Much more likely: Show 1: Up and comer over jobber Show 2: Up and comer over Greg Valentine Show 3: Up and comer over jobber / another JTTS Now, to ME all that does is make Greg Valentine look like a jobber. I've never fully understood the importance of a JTTS. Take a look at almost any JTTS match. They ALL have one thing in common: total lack of heat. These are guys that are so far away from any push that they don't give a shit about them. In a funny way, the crowd care MORE about the more vocal jobbers - your Iron Mike Sharpes - or your token offence face jobbers - your SD Joneses. If SD Jones made a comeback in, say, 1986, the crowd would love it. If Virgil made a comeback in 1994, they'd say "who cares?" Point I'm making is that the JTTS seems counter intuitive. Who is it really helping? I can understand this: All TV appearances: Greg Valentine beats jobbers PPV appearances: Greg Valentine puts over up and comers THAT makes sense. That's setting someone up as still a legit threat and having them put over another guy. I don't see what Valentine putting someone over on TV is doing. Any thoughts?

It might actually be the most annoying match of all time because of it. I really can't think of another one that literally did my head in like that.

You'll find the one from Invasion '92 on Dailymotion if you look (search El Matador vs. Ted DiBiase). It's the one with the Sherri Manager cam. 10 minuntes of her SCREAMING "Teddy Bear, my Teddy Bear". Don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I own every Coliseum VHS released in the UK from 1985 till 1994. I remember that one being like nails on a blackboard. I know DiBiase and IRS tagged a couple of times, but I don't think they became "Money inc." until the LoD match.

Sorry for the bump, but this thread is fan-fucking-tastic.

I think he was treated shabbily towards the end when he was being used as a JTTS tagging with Virgil and appearing in dark matches. I think he was shunted down the card a little too early considering his solidness. One "what if" that does interest me was that in early 1992, early in the El Matador gimmick, Santana and DiBiase had house show matches around the horn. 20-minute time limit draws, that sort of thing. Clearly this was interrupted by the accidental Money Inc team and title run(s) following real life shenanigans with the Road Warriors. And seemingly this was when Tito was really really shunted down the card. I wonder what plans the WWF had for Tito vs. DiBiase. Seems to me that they were planning on it being a Wrestlemania match. I wonder IF that feud had actually taken place, whether Tito would have been so directionless and handed in his notice like he did in 93. I also wonder if those matches were any good and if any footage of them has ever surfaced.

Tito Santana as champ in 1992 is probably the most outlandish of ALL the stories, ever. I mean it's not that far away from saying that they considered Virgil. I mean Virgil and Tito formed the MJC (Miracle Jobber Connection) for quite a while, and Virgil's last (only) high-profile feud was only the year before. It's a laugh-out-loud claim that Tito might have been champ that year. I actually think that Ric Martel would have been a more realistic bet as a solid worker on the back of his feud with Shawn. Or maybe even Dibiase - I STILL think that just before his run with Money Inc when he had Sherri as his manager, they were gearing up for a (third) main event push. Hell, I could even see runs for Davey Boy or even Crush above Tito at that point.

No I agree. I mean I'm the biggest Ted mark around and I think he was out of place in the NWO. And his WWF run as manager is the best example I can think of of a manager getting heat over the talent. That wasn't entirely his fault: they BOOKED it for DiBiase to still be the main heel and all of the members of the corporation as his minions. BUT HE COULDN'T TAKE BUMPS OR HAVE MATCHES So what was the point? I think the Million Dollar Corporation is the worst booked stable of all time - that's right, below Dungeon of Doom.

Ted says much the same thing in his shoot. That the angle had taken off so Eric jumped in and took Ted's spot, leaving Ted to do little but "hold Hogan's belt" which he took as a massive insult. It's the only time in that shoot where he sounds bitter.

Mulligan is an interesting choice, can you say more?

Enjoyed this show even though I've never seen or even heard of most of these Maritimes guy. "The animated gif generation" is a pretty nice label.

I have to say I agree and disagree with Loss's central thesis here. A brief timeline of booking in the WWF 1991 to early 1992 - This was a very very interesting time and one, if you think about it, in which the WWF was trying a lot of "edgier" things. I remember discussing this a few years back on Wrestlecrap Just to summarise some of the "edgy" things: Jake vs. Macho feud (Tuesday in Texas and all the events leading upto it, including Taker's involvement) Shawn kicking Jannety through the barber shop window The DiBiase-Virgil angle (the pre-build was especially dark) Earthquake killing Damien The entire Flair vs. Savage angle in 1992, including the Liz centrefold and Perfect and Flair breaking Savage's leg at SS92 Doink in his early "evil clown" incarnation Berzerker trying to "kill" Undertaker on Superstars The Mountie's cattle prod and night in jail The Hogan vs. Slaughter street fight Then in mid-1992 the steroid scandal hit. And then the thinking of the Office was ... BACK TO BASICS, BACK TO THE OLD FORMULAS For Vince and Pat Patterson that meant two things: 1. To rewind the clock back to the "wholesome" days of Backlund. 2. To repeat the formulas of the rock n' roll era, even making the cartoony aspects of that era MORE CARTOONY. For the top of the card, first they went with Hogan '85-6 again. Initially with Hogan himself at Wrestlemania 9, then with Luger, the Lex Express in 93 more or less openly being an attempt to make Hogan II. In 93, they stripped out the "edgier" aspects of the product: Flair went back to Atlanta, Savage was sidelined to the commentary booth, Jake was sent packing in '92, Undertaker turned face, Doink turned face, Razor Ramon turned face, etc. In 91-3, they also got rid of, or at least phased out, A LOT of guys who had been hanging around the roster for years, a lot of them I'd describe as "non-cartoony" wrestlers, by which I mean that their gimmicks were not cartoon gimmicks. What's a cartoon gimmick? Hillybilly Jim. The Godwinns. IRS. Isaac Yankem. You get the picture. Off the top of my head: Dino Bravo, Hercules, Haku, Greg Valentine, Col. Mustafa (Iron Sheik), Tito Santana, British Bulldog, The Beverley Brothers, The Natural Disasters, Koko Ware, The Warlord, The Barbarian, Paul Roma, Rick Martel, Roddy Piper, Jimmy Snuka, Big Boss Man, Ted DiBiase WHY THIS MASSIVE CLEAR OUT AND WHO REPLACED ALL OF THESE GUYS? Adam Bomb The Headshrinkers Men on a Mission The Four Doinks Ludvig Borga Tatanka The Smoking Gunns Sparky Plugg Bastion Booger The Fake Undertaker Savio Vega The Godwinns What's my point? My point is that it is not entirely accurate to say that this was a turn towards wholesome 70s style "family realism". Look at the names and think of the gimmicks there. What's the obvious difference between someone like Adam Bomb and, say, Dino Bravo? One is a cartoon, the other is just a guy. In one sense the WWF was NEVER as cartoony as it was during this era. Four Doinks vs. Four midget wrestlers anyone? Godwinns "slopping" people anyone? Undertaker vs. Undertaker? etc. etc. The undercard was almost purely comedy gimmick stuff. Men on a Mission are a good symbol of that. Now I think Loss is right to point out that AFTER Lex Express, they booked Bret and Diesel in the 70s style. Hell, they even brought back the actual Bob Backlund for good measure. I think this was Vince and Pat Patterson thinking conservatively. Cartoony product in the main but with a slightly more serious family-orientated, legit-sport 70s-style main event. The radical yeast in this loaf, however, is the Smokey Mountain stuff. Heavenly Bodies, Cornette, Rock 'n' Roll Express, etc. To ME though, it seems that those guys were used as filler. Think about it. Almost the entire roster of talent had gone. They were down to barest, barest bones in 94-5. I mean look at the Survivor Series teams and the Royal Rumbles. The masked wrestlers in "the King's court", the likes of Keith and Bruce Hart getting on PPV cards. Comebacks from Nikolai Volkoff and King Kong Bundy. The Bushwackers actually being on PPV cards where just a couple of years back they'd be doing dark matches. It's ALL filler. The 1995 Rumble entrants list makes for very sorry reading next to the one from 93, let alone 92. So it was back to basics + stripping down to bare bones.

Lots to say here, which I'll do when I get in later. This post is me mildly building hype for a later post.

So what kind of mat work style do you perfer then? Basically as close to Bockwinkel vs. Robinson as possible - the opposite of all the fancy shit they do in Lucha. You'd never ever be able to do that to a guy who isn't working with you. The holds are ridiculous and I hate them because as a fan they bring me out of the match. I'm saying it seems more like an exhibition than a match and I don't like that.

Bah. Rotunda yes. It's my second favorite Rotunda singles match. Which isn't saying much. But it is a good match Have to ask, what's the first? IRS vs. 123 Kid from Summerslam '93? Mike Rotunda vs. Tom Zenk from Havoc '89?

One that often gets overlooked is the "triangle match" with Luger and Flair at Starrcade '95. Also overlooked: vs. Lord Steven Regal at Great American Bash '96. Then there's the obligatory mention of the match with Cactus Jack at Beach Blast '92 (start to finish one of the all-time great PPVs)

Did Bischoff change the plan? My only exposure to wrestling "news" was the Apter mags at my local grocery during this period and I remember the speculation was that DiBiase was to be the NWO financier. I thought he WAS the financeer. I mean what else was he meant to be?

Can anyone explain how the transition from DiBiase to Bischoff happened? I remember Ted on the shoot talking about that time period as the lowest point in his career. Incidentally, I think it would have been pretty sucky for Flair to be in the NWO. It was all about the old NWA/ WCW vs. WWF. Don't think anyone represents the old NWA/ WCW more than Flair.

When Boris Zhukov is not only a champion but also leaving with the belt without jobbing first, you know your company is in trouble.

- The Wrecking Crew's continual victimisation of Sam Housten is really amusing. - Yet AGAIN Flair openly rags on Buddy Landel. Was Landel permanently in the opening match in the Atlanta Superstation cards? He's always just in the ring taking verbal abuse from Ric. I'm intrigued to see how JJ Dillon goes from being his manager to joining up with the Horsemen. - Oh God, Tony's got a week off here, commentary dreamteam of David Crockett and Dusty ... the latter just called Pistol Pez Whatley "one of the greatest black althetes in the world today". - Flair's message is just SOOoooo Reagan's America. It's important to be a winner, it's important to have a "positive attitude", it's important have the trophies and material wealth that comes with success. - Ronnie Garvin! Ha ha, Babydoll just took him out making him look like a complete pussy. Tully's opponent is Sam Houston here, speaking of which it's almost ridiculous that he ended up getting together with Babydoll. She's almost definitely bigger than he is, shades of Eddie and Chyna. Also, LOL at the idea that Dusty wanted her himself, that gives a whole new twist to his booking of the 30 days of "ownership" and of the video with her on a horse. How PERVY was Dusty in that angle? - As we get closer to Starrcade, I love the way Flair becomes gradually more and more heelish. His "I'm on limited time here" attitude with David Crockett is great. "For three and a half years your family has been screwing me like a lot of women I know!" Wow. - Bob Giegel is now the Jack Tunney figure then? His "I can't let this match happen because these two men hate each other too much line" is a bit bizarre. - WHAT THE FUCK??!! Magnum TA: "It's about time that you found out what it's like to be with a real man" TA kisses Baby Doll long and hard for about 30 seconds. David Crockett: "She LIKES it! She LIKES it!" Baby Dolls slaps him in the face. Tully obviously dives in to beat on TA. Awesome heated brawl. I was disturbed by that. Crockett was so creepy, so weird during that segment. - I am entertained by this mini-angle in which Arn tries to steal belts and declare himself champ. It was funny when to took the TV title from Dusty, but when he tried to steal Wahoo McDaniels's Southern Heavyweight title, I cracked up. - So Jim Crockett overturned Bob Giegel's decision? Does that mean the "I Quit" match is sanctioned by JCP but not the NWA? - Ha ha ha, got to love Ole's open hypocrisy. In one promo he rags on Jim Crockett and Magnum TA for going against Giegel, in the next he says it doesn't matter what Geigel or anyone else things, because Arn is the TV champ. Pumped for Starrcade '85 and I might watch the entire card in place of of what's included on the set.

Where did I leave off with this ... - Ole's flying knee from the top rope is not a move you'd expect him to do. - I am growing to really love Ole's "realistic" promos. - Sam Houston comes across as being nervous on the mic. - "It is so hard to be humble when you're lookin' like Ric Flair" - lol at Magnum TA dressed as a cop, he looks like something out of the old arcade game Final Fight. Have to say I always thought TA was a lot of hype about nothing, but I think I've seen enough to know that he was a great babyface during this run. Tully seems to be getting better on the mic as this set progresses. - They were really pushing Houston as a young lion at this point, whatever happened to his career? - WOW, Barry Darsow was stacked in 1985. His Russian accent is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS! Ha ha - Still find this dynamic where Flair is a heel generally but a face when vs. the Russians weird. I mean Dusty even came to make the save. - Can't BELIEVE Houston got a pin over AA! - I like this idea that jobbers are ciphers for the faces with whom the heels are feuding. The idea for example that Tully imaginaes that Jim Jeffers is Magnum TA. - Was Buzz Sawyer in one a talent trade deal with Watts? Surprised he played FIP in that match, you'd have thought it would be Taylor.

Sorry, I missed the word "no". No, I wasn't into this either I'm afriad. There were some nice touches in the matwork - for example I always like it when they punch the area they are working on repeatedly - but on the whole my general criticisms of lucha-style matwork apply.

It looks contrived and fake, but not only that I find it deathly boring too.

Sorry guys, I pretty much hate Lucha-style matwork. This match is exception.

See I fucking hate this WWF / Vince logic. The logic which goes: basically that if it's something the fans want to see it is somehow morally justified. The rules are the rules. If a heel team takes advantage of them by walking out, then they've found a loophole to exploit. If Money Inc had used that loophole too many times, then Jack Tunney should have made an announcement BEFORE the match. Make the match a gimmick match - falls count anywhere, lumberjack or cage. This just came off to me as pandering to Hogan because he was above the rules, and like Loss, it really pissed me off as an 11-year old back in 1993 and it still pisses me off now. Also, after that match, Hogan and Beefcake STEAL IRS's briefcase and start giving DiBiase's money out to the fans. Brilliant role models for the kids. Hogan from about 1993 till that Tower of Doom match in 1996 might just be my least favourite character in wrestling of all time. It's this sort of bullshit that made me hate him.