JerryvonKramer

I think the thing that hurt most of the southern tagteams in the 90s (RnRs, Midnights etc) were their bellies. Worst for it were the Garvin and Hayes version of the Freebirds.

Was Bravo's sidewalk slam ever given any sort of build or protection though? It was such an anticlimactic way to end a match.

On that note, is the sidewalk slam possibly the lamest finisher in wrestling history? It's basically a normal move.

Looking more into Dino Bravo stuff, he seems like he was MAINLY brought in to be a draw in Montreal. He was always treated as a big deal there. According to his OWW profile, they cancelled a Bravo vs. Hogan 20,000 sellout in 1987 because they didn't want Hogan booed. There was also meant to be a retirement show at the Montreal Forum but it was cancelled, trying to find reasons but google isn't giving me much.

Recent Dino Bravo talk made me wonder about his loss to Kerry Von Erich are WM7. Seems like that was his last real big match and after that he was pure JTTS after being "protected" like jdw said.

Bravo didn't really drop down to JTTS level until AT LEAST late 91. He got the better of Ronnie Garvin in that feud. And tagged with Earthquake. He was booked more like a midcarder or even upper midcarder than a lower midcarder.

Pedro Morales still had some name value in 85/6 right?

I really like the Butch Reed stuff I've seen so far on the Mid-South set. Ron Simmons also deserves a mention as a decent "power wrestler". In retrospect Doom should have been even more kickass than they were. I think it would be BS for us not to mention Luger as a guy who looked awesome who could work a decent match on his day. He's not the *best* but he should be mentioned.

Fantastic analysis jdw and I bow to your superior knowledge on this. This stuff is fascinating to me. If I can draw a bottomline conclusion from what you've said it's this: I've been applying an early-mid 90s definition of the JTTS to the 80s and underselling the level of SD Jones, Poffo, etc. I too would like to know what you mean by Bravo being a special case. --- On another note, from watching the stuff from 85 on the Horseman set recently, it's hard not to get the impression that Sam Houston got a fairly major push. He PINNED Arn Anderson on TV. Every time he was in the ring the commentators would hype him as "the next big thing", "someone with a great future in this sport" etc. He was booked as a young lion, similar to ... say an Alex Wright or Marcus Alexander Bagwell a few years later. (don't know why my preference point is 92-3 WCW, but you know what I mean). I think seeing Sam Houston as a JTTS is pretty harsh. That said, he was often teamed with Italian Stallion, Rocky King, or Pez Whatley in tags of 6-men tags. But within those matchs the commentators hype him and he gets shine time where his partners don't.

This is a little bit naughty but I just want to draw Dylan's attention to this post.

Wondering if it's worth getting that DA comp on top of 92 yearbook? Next month is pretty much solidly All Japan for me, but just wondering.

I think both SD Jones and Lanny Poffo in 80s WWF were either the highest-level jobbers or the lowest-level JTTS. I don't think SD Jones was that far above Iron Mike Sharpe and I bet if jdw did a similar break down of results for 1986, we'd see a few wins for Sharpe too. Poffo has a stronger case because he had a very distinctive style and a gimmick and mic time. He was more of a JTTS than a jobber, whereas I'd argue SD Jones was more of a pure jobber than JTTS. To make a comparison: Virgil in 1992 was pretty much a JTTS and by 1993 he was a low-level JTTS. But Virgil in 92/3 was still ABOVE the level of SD Jones or Lanny Poffo in the mid-80s. So if Jones and Poffo were either side of the jobber/ JTTS borderline in 1986, who were the JTTS of that time? Let me have a look at the roster on Solie. http://www.solie.org/wwf86.txt (interestingly, SD Jones is not listed on the roster, but Poffo is) Jimmy Jack Funk Billy Jack Haynes Paul Roma Jim Powers Koko B. Ware The Killer Bees Tony Garea (on his way out) Even though he is not listed, I know the fed were using former Tag champ Gentleman Jerry Valiant as a JTTS around this time - he jobs, for example, to Uncle Elmer on one of the early SNMEs. I don't know what Valiant's deal was though. He may have been brought in on one-off deals to to jobs. Bottomline: ANY of the above would be going over SD Jones or Lanny Poffo one on one. And ANY of the above would be jobbing to the likes of Dino Bravo, Hercules,Corporal Kirshener, or Nikolia Volkoff. Fast forward a few years and those same names - plus Greg Valentine and Tito Santana - would be at the same sort of JTTS level. Incidentally, I think the roster was STRONGER around 1988-1992 sort of period. The 86 roster was thin in comparison. I mean if Greg Valentine and Tito are at the BOTTOM of your card, that's a pretty strong roster. On that note, over in JCP, I think the roster was always thinner until the Turner buyout. So in 1986, you've got quite a stacked upper midcard and main event roster, but then there's pretty much NO ONE at JTTS or lower midcard level. Watching the horseman set, there's a lot of pure scrubs jobbers in there. Sam Houston was probably a midcarder strictly speaking. They had A LOT more guys at the SD Jones sort of "top jobber" level: your Pistol Pez Whatleys, Rocky Kings, and Italian Stallions. I'm prepared to be proved wrong by stats, but I don't think ANY of those guys ever got TV wins ever.

Mike Graham's version is that Luger was pounding into Brody so Brody just sat on the turnbuckle and let him wear himself out. Luger freaked and climbed out of the cage and left. Graham said he wasn't there but Brody rang him the next day.

Yeah the Luger / Brody story he told seemed off too. I'm more inclined to believe Luger's own version of events. He also said Bill Watts got fired from WCW because he pissed off the balcony in an exec meeting. And got paid 750k.

Curious, Mike Graham made it sound like he jumped from Florida to JCP. I don't recall Watts being mentioned.

Because after his they made him a star in Florida he took a £175,000 a year deal with Crockett. I don't really understand why he makes that comment, because he said himself it was crazy money in the 80s. I think it's the way Eddie felt like the boys, even the ones he'd helped to make, were deserting him. And the manner in which Magnum left. But it struck me as an odd thing for Mike Graham to say. He also mentions that his father predicted the death of the territories and going national etc. at least 20 years before it happened. And suggests that his suicide was as much down to him being a former athlete in his 50s and being unable to deal with the changes in his life as it was to do with wrestling or losing all his talent. He doesn't get emotional. But you do get the impression that his father was his hero.

How about typical heeling through the breaking of the rules? Things like making a deal of using a closed fist. Breaking the choke on a 4-count. Using the ropes on the abdominal stretch. I haven't watched since 2004, but that's the sort of stuff I imagine they don't do now.

I'm watching the Mike Graham CWF/ JCP one from 2009 in prep for this. Been putting it off because Graham really really annoyed me on the 24/7 Legends of Wrestling shows. However, so far this is GREAT. His stuff about his father is pretty good - couple of bitter moments (he suggests that Magnum TA's crash was karma) - but on the whole he comes across as a reasonable chap. The bit when he goes through the roster is awesome. I love that part of the Guest Booker shows. Who he takes and who not and why. About 1 hr 30 mins in. EDIT: Oh, it's just finished. Well, he didn't do a lot of actual booking.

I absolutely HATE DiBiase as a face. He's really one of the most boring babyfaces ever -- not that far above Terry Taylor to be honest. The more interesting idea would be to bring him in as his heel Mid-South character and either join the Horsemen double-crossing the UWF guys or at least form an alliance with them.

Can someone explain to me what Taylor's off-camera roles were at WCW? I'll leave some comments here after I watch this.

I didn't know that. I guess it figures. No one is going to tell a worker "Hey, Tito, you're strictly a jobber to the stars now". I wonder IF, however, the likes of Vince or Dusty or any other booker used the term in the office between themselves.

And wasn't it a CO loss to Virgil after interference from Roddy? Ted was booked very very strongly in early 91. At Rumble 91 he was booked to beat Dusty AND Dustin Rhodes pretty much single-handedly. Virgil was the ultimate underdog. That was at least number 3 feud in the company at any given time that year. Tito hadn't had a credible win in AGES. All I'm saying is that Tito beating Ted would have been a massive deal FOR TITO. Oh he did, didn't he? Good call. - Ted lost there too, btw. Mike - I think you were thinking of Summerslam 90, which is the only PPV show I can think of on which Ted didn't have a match during his run -- it's the one where he "buys" Sweet Sapphire. Also, Ted worked an angle with Hogan in 1993, I hardly think Hogan would have worked that angle if Mike Rotunda had been tagging with anyone else. Do you? Also, since win / loss seems to be important to you, Money Inc WON that match! Personally, I don't think losses matter for a certain calibre of heel.

Incidentally, that match (just watched it) is a GREAT example of what Santana was so good at. He was fired up. He was go go go. The crowd still cheered him. He got good offence in. He got all his key spots in. He got the loss while looking like he might have easily got the win. This was only a month or so before he left the WWF. Really good worker I think.

Would Razor vs. Tito at WM 9 have looked any more out of place than Razor vs. Backlund? I don't think so. Did Razor ever have a match with Santana? Oh yeah: (KotR 1993) About 3 minutes.

If reports are true though, El Matador was actually meant to be a PUSH as Vince wanted to break into Mexico and other Spanish territories. What IF, the plan was to put Tito over Ted at Mania? I mean THAT would have been a big win for him. I mean a really big win in the context of his career since the mid-80s. Then who knows? Feud with Razor Ramon? Another feud with Ric Martel? I'm pretty sure Tito left because he was unhappy with his push NOT because he was unhappy working the gimmick. Seems like he was made promises that were not kept. He was involved in angles around this time: around the whole Repo Man steals the Million Dollar Belt back angle. Just for him to be in angles was big in late 91.