JerryvonKramer

Let's not forget that it's all subjective.

Can you tell me some stuff that bugs you about certain lucha workers goc? (or anyone)

Doug Somers 85 Rick Steiner 88

It's more in the way people talk about this stuff. I seldom hear people talk about what bugs them or what doesn't work or anything like that, it's more like that Lego song "Everything is Awesome" with all the people who like lucha dancing about singing those words. It might come down to what goc said, that it doesn't have the benefit of being more widely watched, or what OJ said that its just not widely popular, but my impetus as some one who has got into so much wrestling on the back of recommendations from ... Well, these exact same people, is to ask why? I can talk about stuff that bugs me from people I love. Harley worked too weak for the belt, Flair sometimes doesn't gives good workers his broomstick match, Ted can be lazy as hell on WWF house shows, Funk sometimes undermines the gravitas of situations with comedy, Arn Anderson occasionally lets you down when you go in expecting a classic, etc. etc. Maybe it's because when I hear people talk about lucha they are more in a shilling mode, but I don't feel the discourse has that level of nuance. OJ might be the exception. I also wonder WHICH criticisms of lucha matches can't be met with the response "it's a style thing". I guess these questions are still coming from a place in which I'm bugged by my personal failure to get into it.

He does that every match! I do feel loathe to watch that match considering how boring I found their bouts in 1980, but I think I might have to. Kelly, ready the Leaping Lanny machine!

A pretty surprising run of results tonight. Who is Lisa that had Nash at 53? Four Mike Rotunda voters! And I wasn't one of them. And two votes for unusual people in the 20s! I've got a feeling this is going to be a bit like X Factor at the start of the series when it's a parade of all the really appalling acts who Simon Cowell makes faces at. That's always been my fave bit of X Factor.

I'm still waiting for one of my 100 to come up and I'm thinking about who it will be and where. My money is on Dory, maybe around 200?

Much appreciated mate. Glad you signed up and hope you have a good time here and watching whatever you ordered from Will!

You can give it this, it's possibly the most outrageouly controversial vote so far. (https://twitter.com/JerryvonK/status/718173004094697472)

Wow, that's a monster rating for Dream Machine from Tim Cooke. Also, "Ian Rotten is a better wrestler than Dusty Rhodes" - Chad Campbell.

Are you sure?

I also think about the career of Chris Benoit and wonder at that statement. Someone told me a while back that Vince did try to get Kobashi several times.

I don't really think it's a given. Especially if you go further back to the 70s MSG crowds that are going crazy for Jay Strongbow & Ivan Putski. As much as you loved some of the Billy Robinson matches from Japan in the 70s are you 100% confident they'd have gotten over better with the MSG crowd than Jay Strongbow vs. Mr.Fuji? Well that same MSG crowd absolutely lost their shit for Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask, so that makes me think "yeah, probably". They also lost their shit for Steamboat and Youngblood.

Did you rank Steamboat GOTNW?

RIP, very charismatic worker and a great talker. I'd strongly recommend the shoot interview he did from a few years back if you haven't seen it. He's a very good storyteller.

I see not much distinction between that and Flair vs Wahoo or Flair vs Steamer. And my answer would be the same: I'd say "well these guys work stiff." Giant Baba didn't work stiff himself. Not all AJ guys did. Ok then the answer for "how come the lucha guys work loose" is because that's how they work. With part of that probably being the crazy schedule they would work without the benefit of the off time between tours that Japanese guys would have. But there are lucha guys who have good looking strikes like Perro Aguayo kicking a dude in the face or some of Satanico's punches. But why would they hit each other any harder than necessary if the crowd is engaged? I also see a difference in stiff chops which don't really do anything except leave welts on your chest and really stiff forearms/kicks to head. You've got me thinking about this a bit. I think I have said on numerous occassions over the years "If this match had happened in a WWF ring, it would be thought of and remembered as a classic". Words along those lines. There are lots of incidental 4-star matches that happen in an AJ context that would look more special if pulled out and relocated. Take something like Hansen and DiBiase vs. Jumbo and Tenryu. In the context of all of 1980s All Japan, it's a match that goes missing. Imagine if it had happened on Wrestlemania 5 in place of DiBiase vs. Beefcake (random example), and I think that match would have the sort of purchase that Hart Foundation vs. Brainbusters (Summerslam 89) or Bret vs. Perfect (Summerslam 91) have. It never really struck me to ask if the match would or would not get over in front of the WWF crowd. I took it as a given to be honest.

Do you have to use a "different brain" when you watch it?

I see not much distinction between that and Flair vs Wahoo or Flair vs Steamer. And my answer would be the same: I'd say "well these guys work stiff." Giant Baba didn't work stiff himself. Not all AJ guys did.

It's not what I do. I watch matches and ask the same questions of them regardless of when or where they happened. I have 100s of reviews here and in audio form doing that. When the matches are Lucha I often find them wanting in the areas of structure, psychology, execution, stiffness, intensity and so on and so forth. And then someone comes along and tells me that in this case my questions are silly because it's a style thing. I hope you understand the frustration.

I'm not sure that's the same thing at all. All those AJ matches would be the best US matches of all time if they happened in a US ring.

I guess what confuses me more is how people I align with an awful lot on other wrestling also end up being high on some of this stuff. On his GWE show Pete talked about having to get into a certain zone to watch Lucha. Do other people do that too? Some of the 2/3 fall match structure stuff I'm convinced just wouldn't fly in a US ring and we'd talk about some egregiously bad psychology -- but those criticisms are protected by the almost automatic argument that "well it's a style thing". It's really that hump I'd like to get to the bottom of one day.

No new info

Now everything is in and over, even though me including Casas in my top 10, Cota and Dandy in my top 50 was more "honest" than leaving them out, I still think it's slightly more damning and problematic for me to have included them and not Santo, Satanico or Blue Panther. To me it still looks more like an indictment of Lucha than an endorsement. I've struggled also to find intelligent debate about Lucha merits. Every single criticism I made around loose work, choreography, sudden and abrupt pinfalls, extremely rushed 2/3 match structure and so on was met typically with some version of "you're an idiot, you don't understand the style". There may be reasons around that, whatever they are, but you also have to expect a little bit of kickback if you are going to write off 90s AJ or 80s NWA, probably the two most popular styles among hardcore fans. I still think after this that there's a lot of "this is awesome and you suck if you don't like it" in the Lucha discourse and to me that tone seems discouraging. People who don't get it are pretty much disinclined or worse scared to speak up about it and those who do get it used as a club to get beaten on the head with forever more.

And Steamboat and Funk, we've been over it

GOTNW, with Lucha my position is basically that "I'm sure that stuff is as great as the community says, but the failing is with me in not getting it" Would you ever accept that position for yourself as regards Flair / NWA?