Gregor

There's the SNME Rockers match that didn't make television. I think that the degree to which Bret took it easy it on house shows is way overstated. Not to call you out, Loss, but you've favorably reviewed plenty of Bret's house show matches - the Flair series, the Yokozuna series, Bret vs. Funk. To be fair, you were generally sticking to the highly regarded stuff there, so you skipped over some boring matches like his series with Jeff Jarrett. Either way, even without putting in the detail that he did to his bigger matches, Bret still had a better track record in his small show matches than pretty much anyone else did in the same setting. When I think of a guy who dogged it at house shows in that era, I think of Randy Savage.

The first match that this made me think of was the long Flair-Steamboat match from Saturday Night in 1994. That looked like a really good match for a while. I'd been afraid going in that they were going to look kind of sad trying to recreate something from five years ago, and that wasn't how they looked at all. They looked like great wrestlers fighting hard for the title. I really liked the way that Flair gradually got dirtier as the match progressed - not a brilliant bit of psychology or anything like that, but it's the sort of thing that keeps me into a match and ties it together. Then, at about the twenty-minute mark, they went into the finishing stretch, and they stayed there for something like fifteen minutes. It was just fifteen minutes of near-falls. They traded figure-fours, but those didn't change the course of the match at all; they were just near-fall spots. The stuff they were doing at the 33-minute mark was stuff that they could have been doing at the 23-minute mark. That bothered me more than anything - it's not that near-fall spots and close kickouts are cheap but that all of it was pretty interchangeable. Early on in his comeback, Steamboat did a top-rope chop to the floor, and ten minutes later he was getting two-counts off top-rope chops. They progressed all the way from doing a superplex spot to doing a top-rope superplex spot. For fifteen minutes straight, they were at one level, and I guess that's what brought it down from a match that was on its way to being great to a match that had a lot of good work but as a whole isn't something I'd call particularly good. To me, that's the sort of thing that can make a match go sour - when it no longer feels like it's going anywhere. It's not just near-falls; fifteen minutes of punches, or legwork, or flying that just beats the same point home the whole time without increasing in intensity or desperation or anything at all takes me right out of a match.

I didn't really think that it was a shoot, but when nine-year-old me heard that two men would enter and only one man would leave for one of the Hogan vs. Flair matches in 1999 (I think it was the Uncensored one) I thought that they were going to kill off one of their characters.

"Worst match ever" feels like taking it too far in the other direction. Both guys looked like competent pro wrestlers, and, most importantly, they had the crowd with them the whole way. The truly terrible matches tend to lose a lot of the heat they had at the start.

Other than the Cochisse match, what are the matches that feature great matwork from Satanico?

Scott Hall vs. Roddy Piper, for whatever reason, hasn't seemed to stand the test of time as a terrible match the way that Warrior vs. Hogan II has. Hall vs. Piper might be the worse of the two. Also I think there's a Bob Backlund vs. Aldo Montoya match somewhere on YouTube (maybe DailyMotion) that goes 20+ minutes.

How about Atlantis' two televised matches for WCW? Atlantis vs. Len Denton (Worldwide 9/26/98) Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles Jr. (Worldwide 11/28/98, announcers pretend Atlantis is Lizmark Jr.) I don't know how close this is to completion, but if you can't squeeze either of these in it doesn't seem like it would be a big loss.

You can do one for Michaels but not HHH?

El Dandy, Super Astro, and Kato Kung Lee vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Jerry Estrada, and Kung Fu (5/17/91) The rudos, especially Kung Fu, did a really good job of selling Astro's and Kato's dancing spots. Other than that, this was fine without being particularly memorable, and with Dandy/Astro vs. Fuerza/Estrada I was expecting something memorable (the image of Kung Fu stripped down to his blue underwear is probably seared into my brain forever, but that wasn't the kind of memorable I was looking for). Dandy looked good in general and had some nice exchanges that ended with him dishing out the big right hand; watching this, though, you'd have no idea that he was arguably the world's best wrestler just the year before. El Dandy, Angel Azteca, and El Jalisco vs. Bestia Salvaje, Espectro Jr., and Espectro de Ultratumba (5/1/92) Now, that last match I'd expected to be really good. This match I was interested in mostly for the novelty of seeing Dandy and Azteca interacting in 1992. Of course, I ended up liking this one a lot more. Dandy looked great in this. He had a really good first-fall mat exchange with Espectro de Ultratumba that lasted almost five minutes. That was quite a treat, and then he had a fun ring-clearing sequence with the Espectros later in the fall. It seemed like Dandy was the one in charge of things, as they did an armbar spot that he recycled in the title match with Llanes, and they finished the fall with the sequence that the Dandy/Satanico/Charles team used to win a few falls back in 1990. Here Dandy finished it with a hurracanrana instead of a missile dropkick, which caught me by surprise. The rest kind of went as you'd expect. The rudos dominated the second fall, with the Espectros looking like Bestia's hired thugs. The highlight was Bestia's top-rope senton. Dandy stormed back in the third fall and got some pretty good shots in. Bestia sold his slaps like a champ. I really enjoyed Bestia's performance throughout the match. Taunting the tecnicos as he dragged Angel Azteca away from their corner, spitting in Dandy's face just for fun, and begging for mercy with his arms spread as if he couldn't understand why Dandy would treat him like that - he came across as someone who should have more to his name than he does. I thought that this was really good, but I'm not totally sure what they were going for here. It looked like they were setting up for a Dandy vs. Bestia feud. Dandy bled off a post shot from Bestia, and the exchanges between the two of them seemed to be the focus here, but they didn't have a singles match until September. Dandy moved into the Casas feud after this. Maybe they changed plans when AAA split off. I don't know who El Jalisco was. Luchawiki has an El Jalisco I and an El Jalisco II listed, but they lost their masks in the 1970s (the one in this match had a mask), and I think Alfonso Morales specifically said that this was a different one. He got the winning pinfall, but aside from that he didn't get to do much. He was almost invisible between the finish of the first fall and the finish of the third. Both Dandy and Azteca got to clean house in the ring after the match; Jalisco stayed on the outside. I think that this was his debut, so it felt weird that he wasn't a bigger part of the match. Conversely, this appears to have been Angel Azteca's last televised match for CMLL until his return. He and Espectro Jr. ripped up each other's masks, but of course nothing came of that. El Dandy, Atlantis, and Ringo Mendoza vs. Javier Llanes, Mano Negra, and Back Magic (2/15/94) This was a week before the Middleweight Title match between Dandy and Llanes. The focus was on the two of them, and Dandy bled. They had some nice spots, like when Llanes went to town on Dandy in the corner and when Dandy was swinging at Llanes's face while trapped in the figure four, but this never exploded like I wanted it to. A couple of times Dandy put up his fists like they were about to get into a mini-boxing match, and it never materialized. Llanes looked really slow here and was probably better suited for a cerebral mat-based match than something like this. He did have really good punches, though. I liked the way that everyone else stood on the apron at the end and let Dandy and Llanes fight it out. The best spot in the match was when Mano Negra approached Atlantis with his hand extended and a big smug grin on his face, and Atlantis dropkicked him without even considering the offer.

Bischoff's most successful period in wrestling since 1998 was when he wasn't working with Hogan. Of course, it's probably more important that he wasn't being employed as a decision-maker at that time, either.

Earlier this year I watched a bunch of Goldust from around this time to see how good he was and came away unimpressed. These were some pretty positive reviews so I thought I'd check out the matches myself. The KOTR match got off to a good start, and I really liked Ahmed hurling the steps at Goldust and Goldust doing the twirling bump off a clothesline. The way they built up Ahmed's hope spots was nice but other than that it was a pretty boring heat segment. Even if using chinlocks to build to a sleeper makes sense, there's probably another way to set up the sleeper that won't lose the crowd as much. That piledriver was awful. The finish was nice in that it was a good way to pay off the angle. These two didn't seem to have much chemistry, but Ahmed is one of the clumsiest looking guys on the roster at this point so that's not something to pin on Goldust. This was sort of a commendable effort from Goldust here, as the match never fell apart. After the hot start, though, it wasn't all that interesting, either. Nothing happened in the Goldust vs. Bret match. That spot where Goldust took a swing at Bret while crashing to the mat was pretty cool. Too bad they followed it up with an awkward spot when Bret punched Goldust right as Goldust took out his legs. Goldust attacking the arm rather than the leg was weird but I can't complain because it wasn't even for one minute. That Mind Games match - someone must have missed something, because this wasn't wrestled as a no-DQ match. They kept setting up these ref distraction spots that were completely unnecessary. Goldust's shots to the eyes were pretty good individually but I'm not sure that they added up to a good control segment, as they were all sort of interchangeable. There wasn't really any build. Goldust's chokeslam bump was really bad. I didn't think this was good.

If you're still interested in watching it, I think that is a nearly full version of Lizmark vs. Parka, incorrectly labeled as Lizmark Jr. vs. Parka.

OK, so I got curious and checked the match out for the first time in maybe six or seven years and I think the second time ever. I'm not a fan of either guy or this era of WWE, but I thought it was pretty good. The execution was obviously good, and the finishing run (the whole match, really) seemed a lot less choreographed than WWE matches started to feel later in the decade. A lot of the stuff that I expected to bother me didn't. Angle's pop-up superplex seemed like a ruse, and Benoit didn't go into spasms after hitting his headbutt and make me wonder why he even bothered with it. There weren't any of the little details that people here love, and neither guy's character was evident in their work, so it did feel a bit like an empty exhibition. My two biggest disconnects with what's been posted here were with the Sharpshooter teases and the heat segment. Maybe the teases did lead to a bigger pop for the Sharpshooter, but when Benoit finally got it on it was a throwaway spot five minutes into the match. Putting work into building up an early spot that has no bearing on the match seems like the opposite of smart wrestling to me. On the other hand, the match clearly had a heat segment. Angle gives Benoit an overhead suplex, Angle works him over a bit outside, Angle puts him in a rear chinlock, Benoit fights out and hits the ropes, Angle cuts him off with another overhead suplex, Angle applies the chinlock again, Benoit fights out, and they do a double clothesline. That's a basic WWE heat segment. I could see arguments that it wasn't good or interesting, or that if a match goes twenty minutes then more than four should be devoted to the heat segment, but they did do one.

The RAW after Survivor Series 1995 could be a dark horse contender with the concussion angle, the Diesel promo, and a couple of good matches.

Christmas will always be treated as the bigger event of the two until Thanksgiving gets with the times. The days of a meal and vague notions of sharing and gratitude being enough to get people excited are long gone. Christmas is hyped far better, has far better production values (and Thanksgiving trails even Halloween in this regard), uses gimmicks more effectively, and provides far better payoffs than Thanksgiving. Christmas even has its own Undertaker, who rarely if ever appears outside of the Christmas season. At this point, the only people who prefer Thanksgiving are holiday purists who disdain all of the flash and gimmickry of the December event, and that's a small portion of the U.S. holiday crowd. I'd go so far as to say that if Easter and Halloween ever went big-time and tried to appeal to everyone rather than just to their respective niche audiences, they could knock Thanksgiving down to fourth among U.S. holidays. They've been successful doing the things that Thanksgiving refuses to even try.

Scott Hall gets a lot of praise as a worker. As good as his mind for wrestling may be, it doesn't really shine through in his matches. It's not even just about how good the matches were - he had issues with more basic stuff like adaptability and using spots that weren't that over.

Couldn't you say the same thing about El Dandy? That's what I was thinking of when I asked the question - superb wrestlers at their peak, but neither guy's peak lasted all that long.

They were chatting on Skype.

El Dandy or Eddie Guerrero?

Hollywood Hogan vs. Jacques Rougeau press conference It's kind of strange to see a press conference for a house show match that was never mentioned on WCW TV, but this happened and it was terrific. As far as I can tell, the issue here is that people (possibly just Carl Ouelett) are calling Rougeau the Hulk Hogan of Canada, which Hogan of course can't stomach. Hogan is nothing like his typical 1997 self here. He's more heel Hulk than Hollywood, if that makes any sense; he actually reminds me of Bret Hart in the build to WrestleMania XII. It's interesting to see a more serious and less cartoonish, less blustery side of him, and he's just as good as he is doing Nitro promos. Rougeau is good, too. He has a sort of standard face response for this sort of thing, but he gets in some good lines and Hogan does a great job selling them (my favorite is when Rougeau talks about how Hogan no longer looks people in the eye like a man, and then the next time the camera cuts to Hogan he's taken his sunglasses off, clearly affected by that remark). I've seen the full match but don't really remember it. The last few minutes are on YouTube, and they're okay, but the crowd isn't good and they do my least favorite finish of all time (one guy gets cocky and picks up the other when he could pin him, the other guy gets a cradle to win, and they both look bad), so I wouldn't really recommend it. The press conference is awesome, though. Given that Hogan was carrying WCW on the microphone for much of 1997, I probably can't say that his best promo all year wasn't televised and was for a match that wasn't televised either, but I liked this a lot.

I did one the first time there was a thread like this, and it was pretty embarrassing. Let's see if I can do a better job this time. Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett (7/23/95, IC Title) - I think the only good thing I did that first time was booking this to open the show. This feels like it would make a really good opening match, even though it wasn't an opener in real life. Booker T vs. Disco Inferno (2/21/99) - this opened SuperBrawl IX and the crowd was super hot, even though these two weren't feuding. Booker T was really good for a live crowd. Raven vs. Chris Jericho (10/25/98, TV Title) - another fun WCW PPV opener with no buildup whatsoever. I like the idea of having this sort of goofy brawling on the undercard as a contrast to the more violent brawling in the main event. Ernest Miller vs. Elix Skipper (11/10/00) - one of my favorite comedy matches. I wouldn't be true to myself if I didn't have an Ernest Miller match on the show. My broadcast team is not 2000 Tony Schiavone, Mike Tenay, and Stevie Ray, so this might not be as fun as it was in real life. Owen Hart vs. Vader (9/20/97) Rey Mysterio, Jr./Kidman vs. Juventud Guerrera/Psychosis (1/4/99) - I actually wanted the match from the week before, with Eddie Guerrero in Psychosis' place, but that ran over 15 minutes. I don't know if eight singles matches and two tags is a good ratio. Goldberg vs. Scott Hall (7/6/98, U.S. Title) - I wish this had been a non-title match, because I don't like having four title matches on the show. Not many Goldberg opponents were of big card quality, and I wanted a squash-y match. Jerry Estrada vs. Lizmark (6/18/93, National Light Heavyweight Title) El Dandy/Satanico/Emilio Charles, Jr. vs. Atlantis/Angel Azteca/Javier Cruz (8/24/90) - shorter and less dramatic than the two May matches featuring these six, and it's not particularly heated, so I like it as sort of a cool-down between the big title match and the big apuestas match. It's still lots of fun. El Hijo del Santo vs. Brazo de Oro (1/13/91, mask vs. hair) - I'll close this out with a bloodbath for the world's most coveted mask. I'd use my favorite commentary team, Vince McMahon and Jim Ross, even though Mike Tenay should probably be part of it. It feels pretty bloated, but maybe it would work as a WrestleMania-like card for whatever promotion this is.

I took a quiz on sporcle.com the other day. You had to guess the famous celebrity from a very blurry picture of them. It had people like Madonna, Nicolas Cage, Elvis Presley, Julia Roberts, Muhammad Ali - and Hulk Hogan.

Some WWF house show matches: Shawn Michaels vs. Goldust (8/24/96, Toronto, ladder match) They give a PPV effort, with all of the big bumps you'd expect from a televised ladder match. Goldust doesn't feel out of place at all. There's some clipping after about the fifteen-minute mark, as the camera's battery starts to run out, and even then it's kind of fun listening to the guy freak out hoping that he can get the end on tape. In terms of both style and quality, this probably falls between the Razor-Shawn ladder matches and the Bret-Shawn one. It's pretty cool to see a ladder match for the WWF title at this point. Shawn Michaels and Undertaker vs. Mankind and Goldust (9/29/96, MSG) This is probably a top-five performance both for 1996 Michaels and for 1996 Foley. The match gets noticeably better when either one of them tags in. It's probably not in either guy's top five matches from '96, because it drags for a bit after opening with a hot first two minutes. Undertaker has a shine segment and a FIP segment, both of which feel pretty slow. The Michaels FIP segment after that is really good, though, better than the one he had at International Incident, and it's enough to make this a solidly good match. The video quality (at least in the version on YouTube) is bad even for a '90s handheld. Steve Austin vs. Savio Vega (10/12/96, Tacoma) This is another one with a pedestrian start that gets going and becomes really good. The finishing stretch is one of the best all year from the WWF. It's pretty impressive, given that at this point in the year Austin was way, way above Vega and I doubt anyone actually believed he'd lose. I like Savio; he had a pretty good 1996, although he doesn't have a lot to show for it. I wouldn't call any of these great matches or lost classics or oversights from the 1996 yearbook, nothing like that - just some pretty good stuff from the 1996 house show circuit. For that Bret-Austin match from South Africa listed earlier in the thread, the commentators are Jim Ross and Owen Hart. They're a fun team.

Ooh, one last recommendation: make it 366 days. February 29 has had its share of good stuff (SuperBrawl II, for instance).

You should go with either only airdates or only taping dates. It feels like cheating if you can choose which date to use for a certain match.