Gregor

I DEFINITELY feel like that about music. I don't feel any connection to any artist or group. There are just songs that I like. With wrestling, I have my favorites, but for the most part I agree that it's a lot easier for me (and feels fairer) to judge the output than the input. I've seen matches in which I've been really impressed with the heel's offensive run, but it's interspersed with a bunch of the face's signature comeback spots, or the heel is pacing everything better than usual. I have no idea who's behind what. The heel's ideas for that match could be meshing with mine, or it could be the face calling things and thus making the match enjoyable for me. It could be both of them. There's a lot less that I can get wrong by just saying, "I liked this match," than by trying to break down who did what. This isn't to say that I don't ever credit wrestlers for things during matches - it's just that I can't tell with a lot of it. As for prizing transcendent matches, that strikes me as a different argument, one about opportunities.

I watched one of MonsoonClassic's videos yesterday, so that one got shut down just in the past 24 hours.

Blue Panther vs. Angel Azteca from 9/4/92 is probably worth a look, given how well received the match with El Dandy was. Not that this match is on the level of that one (I've never actually seen Dandy vs. Azteca!), but it's another chance to see Azteca in a title match against one of lucha's greats.

I don't think Dean Malenko is as highly regarded as he used to be, when he was considered just slightly below Guerrero and Benoit, but I'd still go as far as to say he's average or below average, at least in the US. He's athletic and capable of tons of really cool stuff, and it never adds up to anything for me. I like his match at Uncensored with Guerrero and the handheld match they had in Washington in 1997, and that's it as far as US Malenko matches I like. I never totally got the praise for The Rock. Nothing in his matches ever really sticks with me in the sense that I can remember it long after it happens. With him, though, I'd still call him good and just say that I'm not really a fan.

Agreed, but did Super Astro ever use his as an offensive move? I feel like it'd be unfair to hold Rey to the same standard because he can't go as hard and fast as possible with it without risking kicking the other guy's head in. I like a lot of 1990s WWF, and I don't know why the spot where one guy jumps from the second turnbuckle onto the other guy's outstretched foot had the longevity that it did.

I think Michaels' induction was primarily for his 1992-96 work, although that his election was contentious at best and misguided at worst probably supports what you're saying.

It doesn't upset me at all. I was simply trying to explain it.

It's not really a niche thing. "However" is an adverb, and you can't link two clauses with an adverb. Instead of "She's gorgeous, however her breath smells awful," you're supposed to say, "She was gorgeous; however, her breath smelled awful." You could have two sentences there, too. "Then" is also like that, although it's easier to just add "and" ("I got home and then made dinner" instead of "I got home, then made dinner"). That one throws me for a loop a lot.

Had he been in ill health?

You'd have to be trying to misunderstand what he was trying to say to not know whom "he" was referring to. It doesn't have anything to do with me. It just struck me as an unnecessarily dickish response. If someone's posts aren't worth "close reading," why would you even deign to respond to them at all?

How is any of that vague? Unless you're Vince McMahon and intolerant of pronouns, it's pretty obvious what he was talking about. I also don't see how it's anything but a response to your post that immediately preceded it.

No way could I do fifty. There's too much that I haven't seen and too much that I don't feel strongly about. I can do ten favorites, although I wouldn't argue that these are the ten best matches in wrestling history or anything. In no real order: Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind (Mind Games) Long-time favorite. One of the few matches from Michaels' reign in which the focus was on how badly he was being hurt, not how close he was to losing. Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect (KOTR 1993) I always liked how Perfect had this heel turn that lasted only for this match, and it's okay with everyone because that's how wrestling is. Hart returns fire by trying to hurt his leg and then ends up outsmarting him at the end. Sting vs. Vader (GAB 1992) Sting gives his best effort, and it's not enough. This is what a big bad guy winning a belt should feel like. Midnight Express vs. Southern Boys (GAB 1990) My favorite part of this one was when one of the Southern Boys pretended to be the other, exhausted, one. They had some tricks up their sleeve, too. Hijo del Santo vs. Brazo de Oro (1/13/91) Brazo de Oro beats on Hijo del Santo until he snaps. Santo digs his fingers into Oro's cut during the camel clutch, and then Porky dresses his wound, which just results in Santo taking off the cloth or whatever and punching Oro in the face with it. Hijo del Santo vs. Espanto, Jr. (No idea what the date is - it's the handheld title match on YouTube) I struggle a lot with third falls in title matches. There's always something that isn't quite right, to me. This one was perfect. Blue Panther vs. Atlantis (12/5/97) The matwork is my favorite part of lucha, and they spent all match doing it. At one point Panther puts Atlantis in an upside-down Gori special and runs around the ring wearing him like a backpack. La Fiera vs. Jerry Estrada (Don't know the date for this one, either - it's the chain match) Absolute chaos. They're trying to yank each other to the floor, and eventually both guys go flying into the audience at the same time. Fiera at one point looks like he's lynching Estrada. At the end, the ref sees a chance to count both guys down and gets the hell out of there. Randy Savage vs. Tito Santana (4/22/86) Randy Savage is a favorite, and I wanted him included here. This is his best match, to me. Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett (In Your House 2) I dunno if this is one of my ten favorites; I started to reach at the end. They did a bunch of fun spots with the Roadie, and I feel like Michaels should have had more matches like this. If this says anything about me, it's probably that I don't mind crappy finishes, as there are, by my count, four bad finishes and only three really good ones. Something I'm wondering from other people's lists: why is Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin from Survivor Series one of your favorites? I can see how it's a great match, but there's nothing about it that really grabs me and gets me super-into it. I'm not being critical or anything; I'd just like to hear what you really liked about it, because explanations are always more fun for me to read than lists.

Are you actually going to try to do that with WCW, too?

I actually liked that angle at first. Henry's date with Chyna is my favorite wrestling skit of all time, as long as you count the parts with D'Lo.

It should be pointed out that these two no's took place in the 1990s and the yes took place in 1920. I had one example from 1920 among many others, almost all of which were within our lifetimes and others (Hughes) within some of our lifetimes. I didn't mean it as a criticism of the examples you were using. It was just something that I thought should be noted.

It should be pointed out that these two no's took place in the 1990s and the yes took place in 1920.

There's video of one from 1/17/94 at MSG.

I don't see how more people could have been there to see Bret than to see the Bulldog. The crowd in that match was WAY in Bulldog's corner, and Bret Hart doesn't strike me as a wrestler who's such a great spectacle that people are going to pay just so that they can experience seeing him - people who were there to see Bret Hart were probably there to cheer Bret Hart, too, and there were many more people cheering the Bulldog.

There's a video online of Damian 666 applying his face paint before a show. Oh, I'm surprised I could find it. Here:

I like Michaels in spite of his flaws; I don't feel like I'm blind to them. That said, I don't think that I've expressed myself that well. I've said that lazy comebacks are fine as long as they're earned, and I've also said that his comebacks are his worst trait. I guess what I was going for is that he has too many matches in which it feels like it's just too easy. The Goldust match that you mentioned - he works hard to come back, but he finishes Goldust off too easily. I think that the Bulldog match from KOTR was like that, too. The two Vader house show matches online have Michaels doing the standard finish, and it's not convincing at all against Vader. I don't know if you still plan to watch the Billy Gunn match, but that's a fifteen-minute match with the standard finish and not much of a comeback leading up to it (I watched it again out of curiosity, though, and it wasn't as bad as I'd remembered). The Owen Hart match from RAW is similar, but it's shorter. The only twist to the finishing routine is when he dropkicks Vader off the apron, but Owen doesn't get another shot in. The 1-2-3 Kid RAW match has Michaels just duck a clothesline and then take over. Some of the matches are entertaining enough beforehand for me to still say that I enjoyed them. I guess what I'd prefer most is for his matches to not as often feel like he steamrolled the other guy. Sometimes it's as simple as not always going for the kick immediately after the elbow. Maybe someone could duck the kick and get a rollup or go on offense for a few moves. Of the matches you've reviewed, there have been two like that - the Jannetty one and the HHH one. The Kid one is sort of like that. The Leif, Owen, and Goldust RAW matches had outside interference putting a very, very brief halt to the comeback. I just feel like there could be more drama there, and I wouldn't mind as much if they instead invested all the drama into Michaels simply regaining control (that was the main thing that I liked about the Bulldog MSG match, although that one has nearfalls, too). Not every match has to seem close. He can steamroll some guys. It just seemed like it happened too often or in matches that had already had too much put into them (like, it shouldn't happen at the end of a fifteen-minute match). And I know he has other problems, too; this is just my biggest complaint about face Michaels.

Okay, I'll try. You're seven feet tall and probably the best dancer on this entire message board. I dunno if that even works. As to the second part of your request - well, I can't really tell you that you're wrong, even if I don't agree completely. His lack of offense did hurt him as a heel, and a lot of his heel matches really dragged and lost focus in the middle. As a face, though, he didn't suffer that much from a lack of offense or an inability to seem tough. I don't think that was it. His match with Jeff Jarrett is great; he doesn't seem at all like a guy who'd hurt you in that match, and his offense is no better or worse than it usually is. My biggest pet peeve with face Michaels is his comebacks. Not the nip-up - for whatever reason that's never bugged me. It's more that, once he bounces up, it's too often all over. His finishing sequence lasts like two minutes, and it doesn't always seem proportionate to how much time the other guy was in control. A lot of times, the other guy never even gets another shot in on Michaels, which makes that part of the match seem boring and uncompetitive. And he always (not literally always - there are two exceptions) finished matches with the superkick. He just kind of ran through guys a lot. This isn't to say that I think he's a good offensive wrestler who just struggles with his comebacks. He had some good stuff, but he often didn't use it. Then you have matches like the Vader match, when Michaels does a bunch of cool stuff to start out the match (dive over the top, victory roll out of the ring, rana) and doesn't have much left in his arsenal by the time he has to make his comeback. He also had really good straight jabs, and those are a move that fit his character/style of wrestling, but he used them sparingly. His struggles as an offensive wrestler, to me, were more about his doing the wrong stuff and failing to do compelling things with it than they were about his flat-out not having it or looking weak. I know you said that you weren't down on that comeback, but what was it that seemed like blowing off previous work? It's never struck me that way; he seemed suitably fatigued and collapsed whenever Diesel cut him off, as if he'd expended all of his energy into taking control.

Our tastes don't match up anywhere close to perfectly, but I remember the Gunn match as Michaels' worst of the year. Gunn is worse than Helmsley, and Michaels is more interested in Sunny than in the match. The Lawler match is more fun. I know you're mostly doing TV stuff, but the International Incident match seems like the sort of thing you'd be interested in - you get to see which guys are entrusted with certain portions of the match and just how much Sid and Ahmed are allowed to do.

I agree; I just thought I should clarify that not even Shawn's biggest fans talk about that match as something worth watching.

I've never seen the Bulldog match from Beware of Dog pimped by anyone. It's pretty much always described as disappointing. The KOTR match has gotten praise, but I'm not a fan. If you look around on YouTube, you can see clips of a Michaels/Bulldog match from Kuwait (along with some other stuff from that show). It's nothing special. I think that the MSG match was their best together. The International Incident six-man has Michaels working the majority of a 20-25-minute PPV match. Sid and Ahmed just kind of come in and hit their spots; Michaels is in for longer periods of time. TV matches maybe worth seeing (airdates): vs. 1-2-3 Kid (3/4 RAW) vs. Leif Cassidy (3/25 RAW) vs. 1-2-3 Kid (4/27 Superstars) vs. Marty Jannetty (7/1 RAW) vs. Owen Hart (8/12 RAW) vs. Goldust (9/6 RAW) I liked all of them to some degree except for the Jannetty match. He also has a match against Jerry Lawler, but it's a nothing match. Handhelds I've seen out there: Michaels/Diesel vs. Bret/Undertaker (3/17) Michaels vs. Diesel (5/19 - cage, curtain call) Michaels vs. Vader (8/2) Michaels vs. Vader (8/4) Michaels vs. Goldust (8/24 - ladder) All of the handhelds are kind of disappointing.