WingedEagle

Are those patterns? Or are they marching orders from the dressing room?

To be fair, that's true with almost every match each and every one of has watched in this process. I've been on a purpose kick lately, because I think we undervalue the idea of "what is this match trying to achieve?" That's important, but so is context, both within the card and within the week/month/year. I still have no idea how anyone can answer this question for any match unless it is explicitly hammered home by commentary or some blatant, shout it from the rafters action in the ring. I'm not 100% sure how to respond to you. Obviously you think that wrestling is a far less nuanced, either intentionally or indirectly, art form than I do. I am honestly glad that you enjoy what you enjoy despite that. The best answer I can give you is that if you watch a lot of wrestling, you can see patterns. It's that if you learn about wrestling and about how cards built and were put together, you can come to see signs. Can you read things in that aren't there? Probably, which is why you don't just watch one or two or three or six matches for a process like this. You watch a lot and you try to see how two different wrestlers respond to a specific situations; you look at how a wrestler responds to two different situations. Can you ever KNOW? No. But you can think and you can feel. It's a manner of engaging with the text and making connections, which is the basis of almost all learning and understanding. As for a piss break? Yeah, that has a purpose and the question then becomes whether or not the wrestler did the best job he or she could in order to achieve the purpose of the match. How you weigh that relative to everything else is up to you, but I think it's ridiculous to penalize a wrestler for going out and cooling down the crowd if their job was to go out there and cool down the crowd. You don't have to reward them for it, but it's something to keep in mind for the sake of this project. I do generally think its far less nuanced, but am open to be proven wrong. But I'd need facts to back that up, rather than observations. I can understand looking at a match or show and identifying reasons why one likes or doesn't like it. Those are observations based on what it is presented in the ring, on commentary or both. But bringing in specific situations requires such an incredible amount of speculation: How many minutes were called for on the run sheet? How thoroughly was the match laid out beforehand? What latitude were the wrestlers allowed to vary from the answers to the previous questions? What was to come from the mach from an in-ring or storyline perspective at the next show? At the next 6 shows? At the next 60 shows? Why would they want to audible on a given night for one particular crowd that could represent anywhere from an insignificant fraction to a sizeable segment of the company's audience? And probably dozens of others. Its one thing to formulate answers to those questions and then evaluate a match on that basis, but it seems quite another to answer them for ourselves rather than on the basis of fact. Just don't see how we're supposed to recreate every vital aspect of the context that goes into a match when in most cases we don't have any of it.

The real reason for the Divas revolution, ha ha I've got no objection. The show doesn't have a natural halftime or intermission, it makes sense to provide a couple outs for people to spend money and stretch their legs. Five stars!

In that case you'd want them to answer the question in a more subtle fashion because if everyone takes the hint the lines for merch & snacks will be ridiculously long.

To be fair, that's true with almost every match each and every one of has watched in this process. I've been on a purpose kick lately, because I think we undervalue the idea of "what is this match trying to achieve?" That's important, but so is context, both within the card and within the week/month/year. I still have no idea how anyone can answer this question for any match unless it is explicitly hammered home by commentary or some blatant, shout it from the rafters action in the ring.

I'm sure it happens to everyone. You hear about certain classics forever that for one reason or another you've never happened to watch. Maybe you're going through All Japan chronologically and are in the early 90s. Maybe you never delved into 80s New Japan and with it not really available online, are waiting to pick up the set before you see the Gauntlet. It could be anything. The point is you hear about such a match ad nauseum, see it hyped prolifically here and elsewhere and by the time you sit down to watch it you're expecting the greatest thing ever, and maybe it falls short of expectations. Or not. For me, one such was match the Bockinwinkel vs. Hennig 11/86 60 minute draw. I knew it finished #1 in the AWA 80s rankings and consensus seemed to be that it was a 5 star classic. For me, that almost always leads to a letdown of some sort as you build it up to unrealistic expectations. That was not the case here. This was an incredible, engaging, never check the clock classic and would easily make a short or long list of the best matches I'd ever seen. I'm not going to waste anyone's time with a review of the match because Superstar Sleeze has already done and I'm sure others have noted it elsewhere, but what really struck me here is that this was really the Henning show. Bock undoubtedly held his own keeping things moving, working on Hennig's leg and played a great world champion, I think its Henning's performance that transformed this from a great match to an all timer. Much of the early half of the match saw Hennig work on Bock's arm and Bock on Hennig's leg. While Bock initially put this over after early transitions, he essentially dropped it during the back half of the match. Whether he forgot, didn't care or didn't think it fit into his work down the stretch doesn't matter, but he basically disregarded it. Meanwhile you had Hennig limping around ringside as he posting Bock. Just incredible dedication to the groundwork that had been laid and never losing sight of what they were doing over 60 minutes. You add in the gritty intensity down the stretch, the blood and the facials during the closing figure-four and this was one of the best performances I'd ever seen. Its insanity, but this was so out of this world that I want to rank Hennig almost solely on the basis of this match alone. Loved the Hart match in '91, the '93 encounter a whole lot less, but otherwise basically nothing from his WWF run has been impressive other than the character, promos and skits. I just almost don't care right now. What are his other standout babyface performances? What matches do I have to check out in Portland? Would love to build a case for him but not sure how I rest it almost squarely on a couple matches and a plethora of blah. Second major point. He was Mr. Perfect. I also thought he was Curt Henning. I have no idea why, but despite watching him regularly on TV since the WWF run, I somehow dropped a third n into his name. Disgraceful on my part.

I haven't watched any of his big TNA matches. Does anything there add to his case?

Couldn't read lips but Jericho was shoving him and yelling enough post-match that it didn't look the part of a scripted segment.

I'm pretty sure on the last AJ Excite show I praised Hase in his match vs. Akiyama for literally doing push ups while he was in a leg-lock. A mat-purist like OJ is gonna think that stuff is all kinds of goofy. A philistine like me though? To me that's just doing a great job of keeping everyone engaged and awake during the mat stuff. Like so much of that rote NJ mat stuff is so fucking boring to me, and Hase is the one guy who will pull out tricks to keep me entertained. I don't care if he's balancing skittles on his nose and clapping like a seal while juggling fire, it's more interesting than a headlock on its own. I don't really like matwork that is cutesy or intricate or anything like that. I like watching a guy work an arm or a leg, but anything more complex is above my level of understanding of these things. Picture a fairly bright 9-year old and that's probably about my level of watching pro wrestling to be honest. I mean part of the reason I'm so high on Jack Brisco isn't cos he does anything fly on the mat, it's cos he waves his arms like a lunatic when he's selling a basic hold. And also because his matches have pretty solid A-B-C psychology insomuch as you'll get the same bodypart worked over. Anyway, I think it's interesting to consider the different ways people react to the same stuff. As I've said I respect the way OJ watches stuff, but I can't ever bring myself to care more about matwork than 1. "did this stop me falling asleep?", 2. "is there some sort of narrative throughline to what is being done?" (which is no more complex than looking for, move A: arm, move B: arm, move C: arm) and 3. "okay, when are they gonna ramp up into doing some throws now", which will kick in around the 8 or 9 minute mark, possibly a bit later if I know they are going long. Yeah, what he said. I also think there's a pretty wide gulf between these various approaches on the mat. You have OJ apparently looking for a pure, amateur approach. That's fine for some, but not something I have any interest in seeing more than in passing. Its why my mileage on shoot style varies so greatly. I may be able to recognize the skill involved but appreciating talent is very different from finding the output worthwhile. On the other end of the spectrum you have some very cooperative matwork in lucha where it literally feels as though they're dancing in the sense that one is leading and the other following. It personally removes all sense of competition and struggle much as the shoot stuff is devoid of the entertainment. And in the middle you have twisting fingers on a wristlock, stomping feet and pulling back on a leglock and small, active signals that someone is working to hurt their opponent and keep you engaged. It doesn't require much movement or even athleticism. But it does require activity. Probably a bit of understanding how to get a reaction as well, but I'm not concerned with the recipe if the meal tastes great. Its not for everyone, but this type of matwork dichotomy has become clearer and clearer the more I've watched. When I started watching older footage there was a point where I absolutely dreaded extended matwork sequences. I truly look forward to it now, when done the right way.

Swearengen for President.

Damn, I would've easily swapped them into All Japan's tag scene for Gordy & Doc. Can't imagine any world in which a Steiner pulls off a singles match like those Doc did against the big 3, but in tags I think they'd have blown the MVC out of the water.

I've got the entire NWA '89 run on disc just itching for me to dig into it. Plan was to finish the Horsemen set and then go to '89 to stay chronological, but we know what happens to plans. Haven't watched any singles Rick in forever. Like wrestling generations forever. All I recall are some tag highlights with the New Japan boys, Doom, Nasties, and the Sting/Luger Superbrawl out. All solid affairs but nothing that would've made me think of him on a GWE level. While I doubt it happens by deadline I'm looking forward to refreshing things here.

While I knew it wasn't, the clip sounded like something I'd expect to hear from an SNL alumni movie. Great stuff. That South Park bit midway through needs some editing though -- so long Appreciated the love for Kobashi/Akiyama here. The Dome match gets most of the attention, and while I can see arguing for both, this was a sneaky under the radar rivalry that produced big matches over a pretty long period.

I'm not a Rey guy so not much of a shock here, but Eddy will certainly place higher. I binged a bunch of random WCW this weekend and was blown away by just how strongly I preferred Guerrero in WCW as opposed to WWE. The WWE run has Brock, JBL at Judgment Day and the Rey Smackdown match. I don't think he has a single other match in the company I'd take over what he did against Malenko, Jericho, Benoit and others in WCW. While his character work was miles ahead on Smackdown, he was so much smoother and wrestling with a purpose in WCW, particularly as a heel. I'm guessing part of that had to with the car accident and bulking up, as he was much more springy and had a real slithery style at Turner, but cannot believe how strongly it stood out.

Despite bumping the thread to see what folks had been thinking, I hadn't really started to consider Tanahashi relative to others. After merely skimming the list of nominees top 25 feels like a floor with a ceiling much higher. There aren't too many wrestlers with a longer list of great matches. The top of my list is looking oh so incredibly unAmerican.

So that wasn't terrible. Blood! Yay?

Probably quite a bit, but a few things stand out. 1) Action: I like my wrestling to have lots of activity. My favorite wrestling has always been late 80s/90s All Japan. If I were to list my all time favorite matches (coming soon - maybe), this era would produce more than that of any other promotion. But that doesn't mean its the only way to provide bell to bell action. I'll watch Ric Flair or Dick Murdoch work a headlock for minutes on end, as long as they're active. Wrench the hold, grind a forearm, tap a foot to keep the blood flowing. Do something that holds my attention and forces me to engage and take note of the activity. A hammerlock can be problematic to some, but I'll happily watch it the proponent is throwing knees at the arm or back, angling for position and the recipient comes up selling the arm as a reward for my investment. On the other hand, just because its a headlock, wristlock, hammerock, scorpion or some other hold applied for a stretch does not on the surface make it acceptable. If this kind of matwork reaches a stalemate where there's not any effort to secure, break or improve a hold (yes, all eyes on you New Japan) then my attention will be lost. The one big outlier her is lucha. Big fan of the bloody brawls and there are notable exceptions to this next statement, but a lot of the highly touted mat workers don't measure up very well for me. There is no doubt that they pull off creative and intricate matwork that is not at all laying around filling up the tank, but its a bit too cirque du soleil for me. Just takes cooperative to a new level. But what about juniors lying around waiting to take a big move off the top, you ask? Yeah, that works. I can buy that the accumulation of damage leaves someone in position to take a big move without defending themselves. But a lot of lucha leaves me asking why a wrestler lets his opponent get away with as much as he does on the mat. More to come!

If its not brought up by the announcers or made an explicit focus, such as working a limb for an extended period, why would we go the choose your own adventure route and read things into a match? If its really that subtle I don't see how one can say they're picking up on the actual storytelling. One thing I've realized while watching for GWE is just how big an impact announcing, and in the case of foreign announcing, can have on a match. Right or wrong it will color what you see in the ring to varying degrees. When watching matches in a foreign language I'll to some extent rely on prior matches I may have seen and the "big" expressiveness, if you will, of the performers. But I think it requires a pretty big leap of faith and creativity to look for fine print.

Very possibly the Miz. It seems as though a lot of folks are enjoying his current character and use. Not here. Always an opportunity to mute and check things out online or go ask the wife how the Bachelor is this week.

I assure you Shane McMahon does not slip in a USB with his audio before walking out. The entire show is a production and in order for it to run smoothly those in charge of presenting it need to know when to cue up certain audio/video. That's not a part of the show that is being improvised.

Production had to have known to have Michaels's music ready.

Pretty incredible. Just such an odd, persistent mistake.

How come the dates listed for many PPVs on the Network are off by a day? Watched some random WCW today, every one was off by a day. Checked out a few other WWF shows and similarly off by a day. Really odd.

Anyone watch the Brock/Harper match from the night before Roadblock? Haven't watched yet but hope to check it out.

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2. I think it might be a cool exercise to list them out. If you don't want to, I might have a go later. So for Kobashi, I wanted to break out 10 of his top singles performances as well as a top 10 in tags. Not looking to be in any way definitive here but ID if you like All Japan / NOAH you're likely on board with most of these classics. This was also framed to show just how long he stretched out elite performances as well as that they came against folks other than Misawa & Kawada (though they're obviously heavily represented). Also dropping in a "next 10" for both singles and tags as these lists are just as impressive. As would the next 10 or 20. Top 10 Singles: Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi 7/29/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi 8/31/93 Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 7/24/96 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 1/20/97 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/21/97 Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama 7/24/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/31/98 Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama 5/26/00 Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa 3/1/03 Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama 4/25/04 10 More Singles: Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi 9/4/91 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi 10/23/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi 9/3/94 Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 7/24/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/25/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 6/11/99 Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshinari Ogawa 11/1/2003 Kenta Kobashi vs Takao Omori 4/15/00 Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama 7/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs Minoru Suzuki, 1/8/05 Top 10 Tags & Multi-Man: Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen 7/15/89 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi 10/19/90 Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi 4/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi 5/22/95 Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat 5/25/92 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 6/1/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 12/3/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 5/21/94 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 6/9/95 Kobashi & Takayama vs Misawa & Akiyama, 12/2/07 Next 10 Tags & Multi-Man: Jumbo Tsuruta & Great Kabuki & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Akira Taue & Kenta Kobashi 5/26/90 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 6/5/92 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa 7/2/93 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 10/15/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama 3/6/99 Kobashi & Akiyama vs. Hansen & Taue 12/99 Misawa & Kobashi vs Akiyama & Nagata, 2/17/02 Akiyama & Tenryu vs Kobashi & Shiozaki 4/24/05 Akiyama & Tenryu vs Kobashi & Taue 9/18/05 Kobashi & Kensuke Sasaki vs. Tenryu & Nakajima 2/11/06