WingedEagle

Will look to do so tonight when I can look over some lists. What I think might be even more interesting is looking at the next 10 and seeing just how incredible they are as second tier performances.

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2.

You've got me thinking I should try my own rankings this way. We'll see if it happens as the deadline approaches.

Very different direction. The pros and cons are out there. Leaving her impact on the style aside, her highlights are too great to be discounted by the weaknesses. Now if you don't dig her big matches at all, well, you're not about to find any value in the matches that followed where she & co. pushed things and no one discussing Manami Toyota in 2016 is likely going to be persuaded too much in either direction.

Selling, logical progression of moves, moving to get into position for your opponent to hit a move on you, etc.... If I watch a wrestler and don't think to myself that "this doesn't make sense" or "why would he do that" then they are logical. How far does logical go though? Shouldn't most offensive moves actually finish someone? Where each promotion can essentially establish the rules of their own universe it would seem to take away quite a bit to only buy what's logical. Shouldn't every wrestler roll away from an opponent coming off the top? Once there are certain standards or "laws" with consequences then it would seem at that point we can react to occurrences in the ring that prove consistent or not. Sometimes those inconsistencies make for tremendous moments, such as kicking out of something near the finish that has previously been the death knell, or can be problematic where it happens too early. It just seems if we're really being logical then every match should end pretty quickly and just about everything a wrestler does is illogical. Once he's taken any sustained punishment, how is he alive, much less able to mount a fiery comeback? Enjoy it! It doesn't have to be MMA, it just has to make sense within the context of wrestling. An irish whip is completely fine. Point is that there are different contexts, and those contexts can be changed. You have Jumbo piledriving Kawada on the floor on 4/20/91 and then later following with a spike piledriver on the floor, but that's still regarded as an all timer rather than a stop the presses moment because the piledriver wasn't a finisher that told everyone it was time to go home. Or a series of spectacular dives in countless lucha matches where one should be sufficient. Not suggesting there's a problem with an Irish whip, but where do you draw the line? Is it what's been put over as a finisher or a Mortal Kombat fatality that must end things, or when the viewer thinks its enough, conditioning and history be damned?

Angle comp makes a lot more sense than Sabu. Personally find that Toyota's highs vastly exceed Kurt's, but there are certainly similarities between their talents, flaws and styles. I still don't think Toyota gets quite enough credit for her style and doing what she did *when* she did it, as it really looked like an evolutionary jump compared to what was going on at the time.

Selling, logical progression of moves, moving to get into position for your opponent to hit a move on you, etc.... If I watch a wrestler and don't think to myself that "this doesn't make sense" or "why would he do that" then they are logical. How far does logical go though? Shouldn't most offensive moves actually finish someone? Where each promotion can essentially establish the rules of their own universe it would seem to take away quite a bit to only buy what's logical. Shouldn't every wrestler roll away from an opponent coming off the top? Once there are certain standards or "laws" with consequences then it would seem at that point we can react to occurrences in the ring that prove consistent or not. Sometimes those inconsistencies make for tremendous moments, such as kicking out of something near the finish that has previously been the death knell, or can be problematic where it happens too early. It just seems if we're really being logical then every match should end pretty quickly and just about everything a wrestler does is illogical. Once he's taken any sustained punishment, how is he alive, much less able to mount a fiery comeback? Enjoy it!

Absolutely loved this. Made sitting in traffic a total blats. Enjoyed the contrast of your lists and how you both responded to those differences. Favorite part was Parv saying the name "Low Ki" as though Ki himself was in the room and just farted. Hilarious.

What Sabu match approaches anything among Toyota's top couple dozen matches? Haven't found it yet. Looking back on a lot of ECW and indy stuff from that era I've found Sabu's matches have held up worse than almost anyone. Set up a table, break the table, meander about for a while until setting up the next table. Rinse and repeat, maybe swapping out the table for another object.

You'd think something that big emanating from the actual boardroom would get picked up in the financial press as well.

What are Liger's best matches as a heel other than the NOAH feud?

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same? Sarcasm or you believe this? A question. One guy got great earlier and then when his athletics failed him had a down period. The other took longer to get great, but once they did they stayed great until they retired. What is wrong with treating a slow starter to a slow finisher? Because they are not remotely the same thing.

PUMPED.

Those are directly inverse career trajectories. So? One is a great peak and the other is a down period for the guy. It just happens to be at different ends of their careers. Why not treat them the same? Sarcasm or you believe this?

Very excited.

Do we know ye tif Shane is sticking around beyond Mania?

Not sure I understand the hate for the piledriver on the floor. Let's say he did it in every match in the 70s. If it never finished anyone, why the uproar? Seems like if it had been established as a move of death and regarded as such consistently, then presenting it as a random high spot makes all the sense in the world. But otherwise why are we choosing how he should finish a match?

Hopefully not an issue.

Is there anything to prevent someone from submitting multiple ballots?

That makes sense and I appreciate that you're sticking to your formula. Rey is definitely a great example of that as when looking at his specific qualities I find a whole lot more to like than the final output. Yes, but I'm not claiming "objectivity" because I still found ways to low ball him. I don't think his great matches are as great as other people do. I hate his offense. etc. etc. The personal dislike absolutely factors into things, but even beyond that Rey can post some impressive things that are pretty undeniable even to a hater. Which is kind of the definition of "greatness" in my view. That even a hater has to give you your due. But since not everyone has been thinking like that, I don't see why Dylan should necessarily have to do the same with Jumbo, especially if he sees the entire process as being entirely subjective. I'm sure everyone recognizes that subjectivity plays a large part in their rankings. Most probably make an effort to be objective about the process, but at the end of the day it comes down to objectively organizing and framing subjective evaluations. There may be wrestlers I don't want to watch at this point in my life, but if I sat down and forced myself to do so and enjoyed the matches, that counts for something and if the matches are good enough to rank the participant as a top 100 all timer, so be it. If I'm so averse to a wrestler that the matches are the shits and really not enjoyable then they're probably not one of the best ever in my eyes.

That makes sense and I appreciate that you're sticking to your formula. Rey is definitely a great example of that as when looking at his specific qualities I find a whole lot more to like than the final output.

Ha! That is quite the error on my part. I was referring to Mysterio and will edit the original post. Bryan quite a capable singles hitter and slugger. Mysterio never did too much for me. And yes, baseball is responsible for many terrible things.

I know I'm in the minority but don't view Mysterio's WWE run as part of any kind of GWE case. Almost always good, but he became a straight singles & doubles hitter. Fully recognize that part of that is due to how and where on the card he was used, and while I don't doubt that given the opportunity he could've done more, the fact is that's what he delivered for me. He'll absolutely rank and understand him coming up in these discussions, but pretty far from a top of the ballot guy for me. Note: revised because as originally constructed pre-gym and coffee this post was as ambiguous as could be.

Haven't seen a ton of him domestically without the belt, but it didn't look to be quite that skewed when he worked Japan from what I recall. Will certainly check out the thread.

I'd agree, but then what do you do with his '90 or '91? Just absurd. In under 2 years he had vs. Misawa 6/90 vs. Misawa 9/90 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 9/90 6-man classic 10/90 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 12/90 6-man 1/91 6-man classic 4/91 vs. Kawada 4/91 vs. Kobashi 5/91 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 9/91 6-man classic 10/91 vs. Kawada 10/91 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 11/91 vs. Kawada 1/92 vs. Kobashi 2/92 vs. Misawa 4/92 Carnival 6-man classic 5/92 w/ Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada 6/92 That's cutting off the run at an even 2 years from the first Misawa match, and leaving off a few. And arguably leaving off the biggest decade of his career. Christ.