thebrainfollower

Will do later tonight. It's possible you are right about her not being able to up her game in a bigger pond so to speak but that's speculative. It;s a point you could make about 90% of WWE's roster in the last ten years though right?

Top 5 though but I have never heard one that affected me as much as the best Bruno one or Hard times to be honest.

That's a good question about Onita and worth thinking about. And no I won't vote for guys there is little to nothing of. I think putting Londos in a most famous or successful top 100 list is a lock as is top 10 but the fact that there is nothing of him makes it impossible for a list like this. I don't think Flair's the best promo guy ever honestly Jerry.

I think I will adjust on a graded scale. So no promos forJapanese guys but everything else is worth more points.

My only objection to that Jayme is it seemed like everyone cheered when Sting bashed Hogan. So it's almost NOT a heel turn, it's more of a crowd turning with Sting lol. "Yeah we hate this jerk too". Like Cornette against the Dudes in Philly but everywhere.

Awesome. Met Piper a few years back at a horror con and told the story of much my Dad hated him when I was a kid and we watched wrestling together which was our one bonding experience. He asked if my dad was going to come to the con and really wanted to see him, being moved by the whole thing. When I explained my dad could barely leave his apartment due to crippling arthritis he almost seemed to want to come and see him to say hi. Piper struck me as a very class act as a person indeed.

Long story short she thought that her size made doing the AA spinebuster a bad idea as it looked like a power move. I pointed out that AA wasn't really a power wrestler and she countered that HHH was and that it was a steady part of his arsenal. She saw HHH as a power wrestler or at least wanting to be and that doing his move didn't really make any sense. There was the implied point that doing it faster and sharper than him would be a bad idea as well for obvious reasons. And the fact that she, while in shape, isn't really that strong in the arms and that doing that to Victoria and Jazz on a regular night would be a lot harder than doing the Rock's version of it which is a much easier move to get to work for her, according to her. She also thought the Arn one was a more turn the tide for a heel move and when she was sort of working out what moves to do, wanted fast, explosive pop the crowd stuff that could easily then lead into another move for a babyface comeback. Arn's spinebuster is amazing, but it's usually not immediately followed up with anything it's more of a KO the opponent and go for the pin style of move. We also compared Jazz to Clubber Lang and her knowledge of Rocky movies down to scene by scene detail scared the heck out of me. Some of these conversations were actually on her official site's message board (gone for a decade) actually and some were at cons. The point being I got the sense this was someone who really knew and understood 80's wrestling if primarily WWF stuff which was what she said she grew up with. None of which earns her a spot on a list of course, but it's admirable coming from a generation of models who saw wrestling as a chance to make money and become famous and didn't care in the slightest about improving their craft. She SHOULD have been another Stacy or Torrie but loved wrestling enough to actually try. Her Austin podcast isn't great and it's not controversial in the slightest, but it's a good look at how she perceived things. Given how few of you have actually SEEN her work or think much of it I'm tempted to put her under the microscope. I am in no way claiming she's at or better than the top Japanese women, but I do think showing why I think she's the WWF female GOAT and proving why I think if no gender bias existed in WWE she'd have been one of the top 5 stars of the post Attitude era might be worthwhile but I wanna gauge interest. And she knew enough about smart fandom that I got the quote "Oh I know who he is" in reference to Scott Keith.

Roddy Piper clams in Summerslam 90 that the Warlord will eventually become the WWF Phantom of the Opera, hiding under arenas training young wrestlers. I imagine in WWF cannon he helped train Austin.

I guess I see Trump as Vince unchained. Anyway yes some of the CHVS are VERY hard to make a copy of. Vince had amazing copy protection and the old 2 VCR's thing rarely worked back in the day. If that means WWE really has no way of putting them up today online........I doubt that.

That Christy match was her 2nd tv match too. And Trish went into it with a shoulder so injured she could not lift Christy at all (at one point she goes for the Rock Spinebuster she did and switches to a spear when she realizes she can't even do that right she's so hurt at that point, and yes I asked her about that). It seems like a lot of the critics gave her no attention and have not rewatched her stuff in years and never watched it seriously at all because they hate diva matches. By that standard are we assuming JVK is gonna be the new resident expert in lucha? Some stuff to watch Trish and T and vs. the Hardys - Fully Loaded 2000 - Trish has No clue how to wrestle at this point but watch her act like a total coward and jerk to the point where the crowd is red hot when Lita finally gets her hands on her and beats her. All the male managers who rag on girls with big breasts taking their jobs should watch this and eat crow. The Chyna match from 2001 - only for the small role it played it getting Chyna fired as it convinced Vince he could never trust Chyna to not injure his daughter. This one has never been reported. Chyna was told to give Trish a semi-competitive match and make her look decent and squashed her with 2 moves, hurting her legit in the process. It was well known Chyna hated Trish for her "fake body" giving her a push (I know the irony). Worth nothing as a match though. Trish-Molly from KOTR 2002 and Unforgiven 2002 are really good. I don't think there's a great Trish-Jazz match as Jazz did not give her enough but their UK 2003 match is really good. Trish-Nidia from Heat is strangely quite good and Trish-Victoria raw streetfight is great. I think her Unforgiven match from 2004 is good as well. Trish-Victoria from Raw January 2005. The ONLY time in Trish's career she basically squashed someone, playing a legit psychopath who's so angry she will end Lita's career if she could. The irony being due to a Lita botch she nearly did. There's a Trish-Stacy match from October 2004. They play up that Stacey's long legs are the only chance she has. So Trish switches tactics totally working the leg nearly the whole match and then kicking it out for a pin. Melina at Survivor Series is another great one as is her last match. There's at least 20 Trish matches worth checking out.

Hate that Stephanie match. All Stephanie matches are about her guzzling opponents and then never getting hers. Total egomaniac in the ring as protects Vince's daughter. Thought the NXT match was good but nothing great. The Charlotte-Natalya match I can see the argument for but it's nearly twice as long as the longest match Trish was ever allowed to have. And for me ONE great match does not make you better than someone else. I'd argue Savage-Warrior WM VII was better than any Hogan match ever but nobody thinks Warrior is better than Hogan in ring.

I am using a variation of the Bret Hart point system Ring work - worth 10 points Great Matches/feuds/angles - 10 points Mic work - 10 points Drawing/star power - 10 points look - 5 points I think it would be fair if each person explained how you chose your votes for sure. I honestly think that's as interesting to me as who you vote for.

I agree that is a huge problem Pete. But I think an apples to apples in ring work is equally as worthless because of the massive difference in schedule and to a lesser extent expectations. So we have to sort of compromise and accept that ANY list that contains different eras, let alone different nations or cultures, has some logical issues.

Sek I truly believe deep down Vince is a sociopath who wants WWE to NOT outlive him by much. So my answer to your question would be............sort of no. Would love to see the CHV's up. I have about 100 of them from 85-95 but there's always more out there.

Just to make the argument for why I think you SHOULD be wrong on this Childs. The vote is for the GOAT. NOT the "In ring only GOAT". If you want to call this the greatest wrestler of all time you have to allow people to consider any part of the presentation. I consider the look, historical impact and promo skills as important as in ring work. To do otherwise is to do one of the worst thing any historian can do and that's rate according to personal bias. We all do it but to do it that much and then rename the list something else is a huge issue. Let's face it, this is a board that cares more about ring work than other stuff. No problem there but then to have a list that doesn't come out and say "ring work and ONLY ring work" in its title creates a massive distortion. Let me give off a comparison. As a poli sci major and history teacher I am always asked to list my top ten Presidents. I always ask people "do you want my views on their ability to get what THEY wanted done or how wise those things were". Because in terms of ability to get his stuff done, Reagan is a top 5 EASILY but in terms of how bad what he did was IMO he drops at least 20 spots. I was also told specifically I COULD include those things but to avoid things like rumors and just reputation (which makes perfect sense to me) by a moderator when I first suggested why I didn't think I should participate. If that has changed I would like to know certainly as this project is taking a lot of my spare time.

And I saw every match she ever had on TV as they happened with about 3 exceptions and watched em a few times between then and now.

If it is just in ring work then I am out. Waste of time IMO and was specifically told that was NOT the case. If it is let me know so I can pull out now.

Let me suggest this Loss. The fact that you got Nikki and Brie confused means you probably barely follow WWE women's wrestling. I barely followed Lucha and was ignorant of Japan until I came on this board. One of the reasons I initially didn't wanna do my list was how little I knew about either and didn't take my own views that seriously. So I went and starting watching as much Japan as I could as well as some lucha. But I treat you guys on here as mentors to learn from and take your views very very seriously. 5 years ago Lawler would not have been in my top 50 now he's top 10 easily. And last year I watched over 100 Trish Stratus to analyze them all and see if she held up to my memories. So I think I can talk about her and know as much about her as you guys do Stan Hansen as an example.

Bruno and Dusty will yes. The Sheik will make top 50. Graham was TERRIBLE in ring so not sure. . Trish was a better in ring worker than him by miles. Nikita........what did he accomplish to be on the same list as Bruno lol? Okay you meant Nikki. Gotcha. I really like Nikki actually so I think that's fair. As heels they are about even honestly in ring. Nikki does a lot of nice little things showing great character work in ring (situps, push ups, etc, the cocky jock heel act as a woman is a new idea actually IN RING for WWE) and has had some good matches. But Trish has her beat as a face by far. People never got behind Nikki as a face at all and they did for Trish big time. Promo - can't think of a great Nikki promo or one that had fans hating her. Fans DESPISED Trish in 04 despite looking like THAT. That's hard to do and something no other woman then could pull off except Lita which was REAL heat and not kayfabe heat. So Nikki is a fine comparison even if Trish does have her beat in most categories. And Rock makes my top 50.

I go far enough I give Hogan a top 20 spot. Because as I keep saying I am not counting just ring work and matches. Counting look, promo, overness, impact on wrestling and other stuff.

Trish's best matches got way more heat than Alundra Blayze's stuff. That streetfight was not her best even against Victoria in that style. She had 2 much better ones later on. Saying Alundra-Bull blew away the average Trish match in terms of wrestling skill presented is true, but doesn't diminish the case for Trish in the slightest. Did she do tons of matwork? Nope and neither did 90% of the roster at the time. Unless you are prepared to exclude Rock for the same reason. Cause he only did that stuff with Benoit and Angle.

If I have to take you at your word Loss than you probably know little to nothing about WWE women's wrestling from 2000 to the present. To compare Trish to Brie freaking Bella is about as accurate as comparing Ricky Steamboat to Tom Zenk. Other than being good looking, they have little in common. Trish, with barely a year's experience got a much better match with Stephanie McMahon and did so despite Steph's ego eating her alive in that match than Brie did with 8 years experience. Listen to any Trish heel promo from 2004, particularly some of her stuff against Jericho and then tell me if you can find a Brie Bella promo that compares. Find a Brie Bella match or Nattie match beyond ONE (that got more time than anything Trish did by double) that compares to the best 10 or so matches of Trish's career. There aren't any. And consider this. In her entire career, Trish was never given more than 15 minutes to work in a singles match. Not once in her entire career. No wonder she never got beyond 3.5 stars (for the record I think she has 2 at or near 4). Watch a BAD Trish Stratus match (like say the Nidia one from heat 2004 and watch someone who's worked out exactly how to work heel against a lesser opponent and get real heat. It's a smart performance against someone who never amounted to much. Heck just watch the amount of effort she puts into a darn chinlock during that match and compare that to Randy Orton. As for AJ that's a little more valid because AJ was on top for a few years. But by the end, people just wanted AJ to go away and were totally apathetic to her. I also don't think AJ ever really had a great match, could work face and heel well (Heel sort of, face no) and got fans to care and was given a lot more of the spotlight for a brief time than Trish was. You talk about how Trish was over when wrestling was hot. The peak of Trish's career was 2002-2006. The same years when WWE plunged from it's greatest success to today's mediocrity. 2000 was a hot year 2004 Raw was sure as heck not. She did not get over during a popular period, she got over after it during the worst run (Raw 2002-2005) in WWF history IMO. Watch the Lita raw match from 2004 for the way it's presented, worked and fan reactions. Blows HHH and anything he did out of the water and she's a much much better heel than him too. Or how awesome Trish was just being a total blitch to people like Christy. She knew how to make a totally idiotic program idea work as well as anyone possibly could.

You're still not getting the basic fact that it's what Trish accomplished what she did in that environment that warrants her inclusion in my opinion. You think it's a thin case, I think it's a good case. Just different opinions. As for it being a thin talent pool, yes it was. COMPARED TO AN ENTIRE COMPANY In Japan, something that covered about 15% of a company's TV time would probably have a thin talent pool. Also the fact that it came from such a lousy heritage like Moolah. Looking at ratings I did give Trish-Mickie and the Raw main event with Lita 4 stars FWIW.

I think that's fair WE. I am not sure I can think of a 5 star Hogan match either and he's in my top 20. Depends on what influences your vote. Really good ones inc Stephanie at NWO, Lita 2004 Raw and last match, 2002 Victoria No Mercy, 2002 both PPV matches with Molly, all her stuff with Mickie on PPV. Her best stuff is probably only in the 3.5 stars range I agree.

Oh please Loss. How about got fans to care about her, her character and women's wrestling? Was an AMAZING heel in 2004, easily one of the best if not THE best in WWE at the time, running rings around HHH on how to be a proper heel. Nattie has had a few good matches and one great one but never been able to cut a promo to save her life, be a good heel or face or get fans to care about her. Brie Bella's a disaster. Trish vs. AJ is more of a valid comparison but AJ seemed to actively hurt the entire division with how she was booked and dealt with her opponents whereas Trish's run is regarded as the golden age of women's wrestling in the WWF for a good reason. Were the matches the best? No technically they were not. But fans cared more about it than at any other time. It's NOT all about just matches and in ring work for some people. It's why someone like Hogan is a lock for my top 20 and he won't make others top 100. It's just a matter of what matters, different for different people. If you'd actually care to watch a bunch of her matches and promos and analyze them with me that's fine. Otherwise I think (having rewatched every televised match she had last year) I know a LOT more about this stuff than you do. Please state the quote of mine Childs where I lay out how shitty NA women's wrestling has ALWAYS been. I said and I do think that 80's women's wrestling in the US was terrible. I think it got much better with the AJW influences in the 90's but I actually think it was never better in the US before Trish than during her peak. That's in the US with US workers remember not Madusa wrestling women Trish and her colleagues never did. And yes in ring is better now. But Trish is a better promo and character than any of the divas revolution women other than MAYBE Sasha. She's still the WWF women's GOAT by a LONG mile (4 great matches in 2 years is not enough to surpass her for me, if it is for you cool, that's a different opinon) in my opinion and therefore warrants a place on MY list. If she doesn't on yours cool. I am sure it will be no big deal when my list leaves off some people's personal likes either.