Jimmy Redman

Yeah, and I think it's a good example of where our criteria are different, because what you see as Base Stats just don't mean all that much to me, as I've often said already. You've said you have Hase over Taue, and I have Hase nowhere near Taue, and I think that is largely down to the Base part.

I am all aboard on Team Taue and I haven't even got to 1995 yet. I honestly think people who talk about the "Three Pillars" or think Taue was just along for the ride are insane. I have no idea what they're watching. Taue is fucking awesome and is clearly contributing to these matches. I could well end up ranking Taue 4th out of the Pillars, but it will be by a matter of degrees and not because I don't think Taue is on their level. I love the big bastard. Another one of my inherent weaknesses is for big, stretched out, goofy looking giants. Taue looks like the son of Baba, and I mean that in the best possible way. I love his size and how he can just amble over and chop people, but then turn around and get into the AJ-style dropping of bombs. He's great in these long AJ epics, great at brawling, and also just so great at working sprints. And for such a big guy, he's surprisingly sympathetic when it's his turn to actually get beaten on. He's also a total dick and that is always great. He had the most watchable match I've ever seen Marufuji have, which earns points with me. I want to get to his 1995 before I really decide where to put him, but he will be going high.

Probably worse, just because Dolph is such a mediocre babyface, while Morrison was a good working face. Dolph is probably better working as a singles heel than Morrison, but it's a much closer call. Morrison is the better tag worker, although Dolph is a good tag worker himself. I'd take Morrison's best match (vs Rey) over Dolph's (probably Payback) but I'd probably take Dolph's 5-10 best singles matches over Morrison's. I'd say Morrison, but not by all that much now that I think about it. To me the key factor is Dolph being so terrible as a babyface in a way that Morrison hasn't been terrible at anything (except cutting promos I guess).

I feel like you'd like the Payback match Parv. It's got a neat hook in the double turn, and from memory it's about as violent as a modern WWE match can get without blood or weapons. Dolph's selling really creates this violent feel, and Alberto is a grade A asshole in it.

Now we're almost there and I've finally started to make a list, I'm having what I assume are universal list problems. The main one being that I have about 35 guys in my "bottom ten", and hardly anyone in the 60-90 slots. I think I find it easier to throw someone a bone at the bottom than to say "this guy is a Top 70 guy." Anyone else have this problem? Is there someone whom you have no idea where to rank them? Bret has a daily swing of like 20+ spots for me, for example. No idea still. What are everyone's ranking issues as we come down to it?

His best singles matches that I've seen are the Muta Scale match, vs Hash in 12/94 and vs Akiyama whenever that was. I lean more towards you than Parv in that I think he's talented and have enjoyed his best matches, but I don't see him as a transcendent talent, nor does he have the volume of greatness either. If I rank him it will be down the bottom somewhere.

I don't know what this award thing is, but it sounds like something made for Roman to interrupt the awarding of.

I may actually be the high voter for Austin. Is anyone putting him #1 or anything like that? Because he's a lock for my Top 10. I feel a little strange saying that on the surface, because I'm saying that without growing up an Attitude Era fan or living through his megastar run. He retired as a wrestler months before I began watching wrestling, so my opinion of him is informed only by hindsight. I just love this man. To me he embodies everything about being a pro wrestler, everything about being a megastar. Whenever he is on screen he is so completely "on", more than I've ever seen any other wrestler be "on". There's something incredibly real about him, something visceral, something that reaches out and connects with you. Whatever you want to call it - IT, charisma, Intangibles, je ne sais quoi - he has it in spades and spades, moreso than almost anyone else in the history of the biz. That bleeds into everything he does, every match he has, and it's impossible to look away. That level of magnetism goes a long way with me. He's a guy of whom I'd love to watch a complete, every-match-and-promo-ever compilation of. I can count the number of guys I'd say that about on one hand, but he's one of them. Even if every match isn't going to be brilliant as a match, Austin is always compelling to watch regardless. He effortlessly portrays toughness, and yet for such a tough guy character he is really good at selling - selling pain, selling damage, selling exhaustion. As such a badass character, that ability to sell and garner sympathy is key to keeping him sympathetic enough to work as a babyface. And then in turn, when he turned heel in 2001 he was such a paranoid, dastardly, cowardly shithead, and he pulled that off as well, because he still had that innate toughness underneath, he just chose to be an utter piece of shit and take the easy road. I think he was a phenomenal wrestler in 2001, and I'd honestly put that run up with any other calendar year of quality work. He has classic matches with Bret, with Rock, with Foley, with Angle, with Benoit. And you can add the stuff that he makes super fun like the matches with Vince, or the random matches in 2001 with guys like Tajiri. There's a lot I want to revisit from him too, like the Owen and Undertaker matches. I wonder what else is out there during his 97-99 run apart from the obvious, but I feel like Attitude Era isn't really the place for hidden gems and good TV matches.

Yeah I remember that being a made up thing. Like the fake story about Batista being mad at his sick wife for not vacuuming or some shit.

Orton is going on my list. In the Problematic WWE Guys department, I have him above guys like Hunter, Angle, Edge. Orton has never outright offended me the way those guys have. I just find him boring a lot of the time. But at the same time, he has his good periods as well, and those periods are full of lots of good stuff and get him a good spot on my list. 2003-04 was Legend Killer Orton. Even though this was his first significant run, I actually think this run was where he was the most well-rounded wrestler, in terms of character, charisma, promos and ring work all coming together. Since then he's always seemed to lack at least one of them. He was perfect as the cocky young stud, who all the ladies wanted to fuck and all the guys wanted to beat the fuck out of. He cut good promos, and showed real emotion in doing so. He was great in the ring in this period too - he already had the ability to bump his ass off, and not just that but also sell really well too. He made faces look like a million bucks, and then also had some nice offense, and always had the RKO - the RKO was great in this period because he'd bump and sell and they'd build these big finishing stretches and just when you think someone would beat him BAM, RKO, get fucked. It's a great finish. He was also working on Raw in 2004 which was a goldmine for great TV matches, so there's a lot of volume there. Basically anything from 2004 is worth watching, from Evolution 6-mans or tag matches, to long top of the hour midcard matches, to long main events. His best matches from this period include: vs Foley, Backlash 2004 vs Edge, Vengeance 2004 (plus the Raw rematch) vs Benoit, Summerslam 2004 (plus the Raw rematch) 2005-06 was his first Smackdown run. He was OK during this period, he worked as an upper-midcard heel quite well without really knocking the door down. Match-wise there's not much to his 2005 aside from the Undertaker matches (which I quite like, particularly the Mania match), but when 2006 comes he's involved in a lot more good stuff. vs Benoit, Smackdown 13.1.06 (Best of Seven final - Orton subbed for Booker for the final three matches) vs Benoit, Smackdown 27.1.06 (No Holds Barred) vs Rey, Smackdown 7.4.06 (For those of us talking about Orton not being able to garner heat, watch this one) vs Angle, ECW ONS 2006 2007 is when he starts to put things together in the ring a lot more. He was really good that year, more on a micro level than in having a list of awesome matches. But the things he brings to his matches are really good. Him trying to carry Lashley on ECW, or his awesome headlock work at Summerslam (no, really), or starting to punt guys into oblivion, or the proto-Viper expressions in the Hunter match...the little details are adding up. He and Edge were a good working team while they were together, and the Cena feud with the dad punting and what not was really good. I'm curious to revisit his late 2007 work while WWE Champ, particularly the Shawn matches, since I don't remember much about those. Best matches from this period: w/ Edge vs DX, NYR 2007 vs Cena, Summerslam 2007 vs Hunter, No Mercy 2007 (Last Man Standing) Early 2008 continues on, he has that super mini feud with Jeff Hardy, and I do really like the NWO 2008 match vs Cena, it's good stuff and the finish to that match is glorious and I love it and I've lost my shit every time someone has used it since. After that he gets bogged down into a million Hunter matches and then gets injured. This injury is actually one of his highlights, because it was when he'd appear on Raw wearing actual clothes and cut these great promos on everyone, from Cody and Ted to the main eventers. This is where he recruited Legacy, and he comes off like a star whenever he's around (at a time when he still didn't always feel like a main event guy). He almost lost something when he actually came back to wrestle and the specialness was gone, but very soon after that he punted Vince and became Psycho Orton. He got screwed by the booking here, and had another million matches with Hunter, but as a character it was his best work in a while. I really like the Cena feud in 2009. I love the I Quit, some people find it goofy but for me it's just the right kind of goofy. It's that overly symbolic, overly stylized good vs evil kind of match that Cena specialises in. And I also love the Ironman match, they fill the space amazingly well and add all sorts into it. That Ted Jr. "match" I spoke about recently is also a good indication of what Orton was capable of in this period. At the end of it there's a look he gives the crowd at the moment when he realises that the resistance is over, and it is just amazing, one of the single best looks I've seen anyone give in a ring. Bald Viper Orton is incredibly goofy, but also incredibly expressive and I find it effective and very pro wrestling. 2010 is an absolute black hole of boredom when it comes to Orton. 2011 is probably his single best year in terms of output of quality matches. It's a big reason why I'm putting him as high as I am. I loved him in 2011. During the brand split nothing tickled me quite like a guy going to Smackdown and reinventing himself as a TV workrate machine, and that's what Orton did in 2011. He was a bland babyface and cut monotonous Orton Voice promos, but who cares because I had my workrate. He had great PPV matches with Punk, Christian and Henry, and great TV matches with all sorts of people - Dolph, Cody, Ted, Punk, Christian, Barrett, Sheamus, even David Otunga. That Otunga match is so amazing, by the way - a Christmas themed Street Fight that had Orton throwing ornaments and boxes at Otunga's head and cackling, which is so far away from what Orton is usually like. It was so much fun seeing Orton act...human. I recommend everyone watch this match, just in general, it's great. The Christian feud is essential from this period. I recommend watching their whole feud in order to really see all of the counters and stories from previous matches that they weave into it. It's a great match-to-match feud. These are the matches, the bolded ones are the highlights: Smackdown 6.5.11 Over the Limit 2011 Capitol Punishment 2011 Money in the Bank 2011 Summerslam 2011 (No Holds Barred) Smackdown 30.8.11 (Cage) I think Orton from 2012 to the present is his longest period of being boring so far. He's just been on TV and overexposed for so long that it's so hard to care about anything he does anymore. BUT there's still been some good stuff along the way. The Bryan feud of mid-2013 is great, as are their other big matches on Raw - Dec 2013 and Feb 2014. Orton was a good babyface trios member in a lot of Shield tags. I'm sure he had a PPV match with Dolph in 2012 and they always work well together. But the main match I want to mention from this period is a match he had vs Big Show on Smackdown, September 2012. Orton was still a face here, and had a rib injury going in that Show worked over. Orton garnering heat with sympathetic selling is, again, so far away from what we usually see from him that is is incredibly compelling. I'd recommend it to anyone who thinks that Orton doesn't have that kind of range in him. I've been waffling on forever now and I don't really have much of a conclusion. Just to say that despite my current boredom with him that extends all the way back to 2012, Orton has done a LOT of good work over the years, and has shown himself to be capable of a lot of different styles of match and roles, which is often forgotten due to him coming off as such a robot so much of the time. He's had great matches as a heel, as a face, in tags, in multi-man clusterfucks, he's had great wild brawls, gimmick matches, PPV main events, TV midcard matches, ace vs midcarder matches, matches based on selling, matches based on counters and cool shit, matches based on the story...the works.

Hash is trending upwards for me at the moment. He's actually a guy who I've been up and down with. There have been times where I've wanted to like him more than I actually did. He appealed to me a lot on spec, I liked his shape and his look and his face, and liked when he would beat the shit out of people, but oftentimes I wasn't getting what I wanted out of his matches. I was bored during the parts that weren't kicks to the face. I guess I'm finally watching the right matches, because I am enjoying the matches a lot more, and thus am able to piece together all of the other things that he brings. My favourite thing about him is just how dangerous he comes off as. It's something you have to watch him wrestle to get because on sight his Fat Elvis look can be a little goofy, but once you see him in the ring you can see how badass he is, and just how powerful and dangerous to another human being he really is. Like I said about the Hash/Hase match, it's scary how easily it looks like he could kill someone, once he really starts moving. That sense of danger adds to basically all of his matches, because even when he's selling or being attacked, you never lose that sense that at any moment, he could turn around and kill this man. No matter how much he sells, he never loses any of his credibility as a monster. It allows him to be as giving as he likes in a match, which in turn creates the high drama that comes from making people think that David has a chance to beat Goliath. He has moved up into my top half now, whereas he was sitting just outside it before.

Since the Monster Mash Battle Royal!

This is a great point and a big factor in why I loved the matwork part. I really did love the matwork, and that's saying something coming from me because I usually can't handle sitting through guys laying on the mat forever. Here it works for me because Hash is such a...Hash that Hase had no choice but to take it to the mat, lest be he killed to death by strikes. But if he can grab a leg and lay on the big bear for long enough, he might have a shot. So he does this, and he does it expertly, always countering Hash, always going straight back to the leg when they get stood up. Hase did not want to be vertical this entire match. But he works the mat, works and works...and it's just not working. Hash starts getting a little of his own back on the mat, he's not really making a dent in him, so eventually his frustration boils over and he slaps Hash. He slaps Hash. This was my favourite moment of the entire match. Even in Hash's generally expressionless face you can see him thinking "What a stupid, stupid motherfucker, he's just blown it.' And he had. Hase opened the game up for strikes, and the moment he did that he sealed his fate, no matter how long it took for him to go down. My second favourite moment of the entire match was just before this I think, when Hash finally countered something on the mat, and Holy Shit, the speed and fury with which he countered, got on top and grabbed something was just frightening. Literally frightening, to see how powerful he is, how easily he could kill someone before he even realised what happened. Hash is one scary motherfucker. Anyway, then of course the strikes began and Hash just proceeds to beat the living shit out of him. Those body kicks were disgusting. I liked Hase throwing the hardest chops he could, but again it was futile trying to engage in striking with Hash. Hase's Plan B was having counters for Hash's big moves, and I liked that it forced Hash to bust out things like a reverse DDT instead. That spin kick that set the finish up was wicked. I fucking loved this. It's easily my favourite NJ heavyweight match.

I can't remember off-hand, so I'll pop it in and see what I make of it now. All I remember is that it was Barry's black glove Claw, which I fucking hated. The early going was fine, I enjoy Dusty bumping guys around so it was fun enough. Barry does bump, feed and sell really well, but we already knew that. My first main problem is the transitions are either terrible or non-existent, especially in the middle third. Like, the story is Dusty killing Barry's back with big bumps outside, but these big bumps are completely fucking no sold. Dusty slams him on the concrete, and Barry sells the shit out of this, barely getting back in the ring and needing the ropes to stay up. Then he walks over to Dusty, starts punching him and goes back on offense. Even JR had to be all "what a miraculous recovery!" because one minute they were selling how dead Barry was, and then two seconds later he's fine. Then they try it again when Dusty tosses him over the top rope to the floor, again a big bump that Barry sells the shit out of...for ten seconds. Then JJ distracts the ref and Barry runs over to Dusty and goes back on offense. Once again it was completely no sold. There were no transitions, no clear link between anything, it was just doing stuff with no thread tying it together. Like, if you saw a twenty second GIF of Barry taking one of these bumps and then selling death, you'd think it was awesome. But the next thing that happens is Barry casually strolling over and punching Dusty again, as if he'd been on offense for the last five minutes and nothing had happened. After this the Claw comes out and you completely lose me because I fucking hate the Claw, it's stupid. Then the obligatory Dusty finish and...eh. I didn't like this.

Funny, I also happened to watch Benoit/Sasuke yesterday. I basically had the same thoughts as you, it was a pretty good looking juniors spotfest, but it didn't really have an extra hook or emotional appeal, apart from Sasuke being the unlikely finalist. Parv have you watched the Liger/Sasuke semi final from the same show? It has much more of a story to it with Sasuke being a huge underdog and going up against King Ace Liger, which plays into everything they do. I think it's miles better than the final. You sold me on that tag match though.

So this is actually a thing? Wow. This has been rumoured for like ten years, to the point of hiring people "for the new cruiserweight show" and nothing has ever materialised. What a world we live in.

Only three? You sir are an asshole. Cena vs Umaga - Rumble 2007 My favourite match of all time. It's perfect in every way. It's Cena's best match, it's a war with bombs and weapons, it has a great story that unfolds, it's good vs evil, it has everything. Team Austin vs Team Bischoff - Survivor Series 2003 My other favourite match of all time. It is the match that got me hooked on wrestling. I've watched it a hundred times and I never get tired of it, even though I could probably recite the commentary by now. The angle going in, the match as it unfolds early, and then Shawn Michaels' performance and the heart breaking finish. I love it all. Trish Stratus vs Mickie James - WM22 The first two were no brainers. This I had to think about because I was torn between about four different Trish matches. It was either this or Trish vs Lita from the Raw main event in 2004. But that one is more for being the culmination of a long feud, while this one is probably a little more interesting on it's own merits, if you include crazy Mickie, JR's manic commentary and the rebellious crowd (before that kind of thing was commonplace).

I think Barry is like the most talented wrestler who does absolutely nothing for me. I see him pimped all the time here, I've read all the arguments and the case, then I watch his matches and I mean...I even see how talented he is physically and it's not like I can disagree with anything people say about him I just...feel nothing. Like how I feel about Ted, but multiplied. I like the Flair matches. I liked the Arn match from 1992. Every other time I see him I am just wholly indifferent to him. Perplexingly so, because like I said, he's talented and I can't really find anything wrong with him other than the fact that he doesn't interest me in any way. Although there is that match he had with Dusty in 1988 that was so horrifying that it turned me off both guys for years. I just don't know what to do with a guy like that. I don't like him, and I won't be ranking him at all, but I have no way of articulating why. It's frustrating on an intellectual level, but there it is.

Yeah the idea that there haven't been real heels in the last 10 years is laughable. It's not so much people who hate wrestling, but people who don't appear genuine in either their love for wrestling or in their work. Eva Marie is a bombshell recruited from a magazine (or whatever) and pushed on Total Divas and TV while appearing clueless and untalented whenever she's required to wrestle. That gets real heat because it offends people that she gets pushed based solely on looks. It was an open secret that Reigns was being groomed for the next big babyface spot, and because of the golden boy aspect of his push, coupled with the fans clearly preferring someone else to be in that spot, it created real heat because people see an inauthentic push. And the more people rejected him, the more inauthentic his push looked, because he's supposed to be this popular face that The Man can't hold down. and it's obvious that it's complete bullshit, which just creates more and more animosity.

With Batista it was just the worst possible timing for him. Any other time, bringing Batista back as the returning superstar face would have worked, at least for an initial run. But as 2014 dawned we were six months into Bryan being pushed/not pushed as our guy, and a big OVW creation coming back from Hollywood to take his spot was like the worst possible thing to do at that moment. It was a slap in the face to fans, to not only ignore their wishes and try to slot Bryan back in the midcard where he belonged, but also in not paying off the story that they'd been telling on TV since June. Batista was pretty over for his return, and it was only when everyone realised he was taking Bryan's spot that the backlash began. I think eventually backlash would have been inevitable anyway, since crowds these days prefer to cheer "their guys" instead of guys they see as being handpicked. But it would have taken a lot longer without Bryan, and they could have used the goodwill he had for a decent face run before he had to turn heel. Instead of the mess that we got.

I watched this recently after posting in Rock's thread, and broadly speaking I agree with Sleaze's take. It's a good match, and I like how they work it with quick bursts of offense and lots of momentum shifts and cutoffs. It created something that felt a lot shorter than it was because the pace was so snappy. But at the same time, like you say there's not much drama or narrative to the match. It's just...a bunch of stuff happens, there's a big table spot, and an Attitude Era interference finish, and this one doesn't even seem to be for any discernible reason. It is one of those Attitude Era matches that was probably a lot of fun at the time, but doesn't have the depth to it that lends itself to a cold re-watch years down the line.

Yeah, like look at the stuff Becky has been involved with recently. I mean they pulled the Charlotte feud together in the end, but when they were at the point before Charlotte really turned where she was freely using her father to cheat to win, and Becky was objecting to this, it really came off as though Becky was, not necessarily in the wrong, but not the likeable one. She came off as kind of a killjoy for wanting to play by the rules. I think for so many years we've had "you do whatever it takes to win!" drilled into our heads that cheating to win matches just seems way too...reasonable. We are in an age of internet piracy - we download to avoid paying for entertainment, we shop online to get things cheaper or for free...we all do what we can get away with in this world. Pulling the tights is a wrestler's way of beating the system.

Thanks everyone for the boot camp help. This post isn't about that, but since I have my own vanity thread here already, I might as well use it for my own random thoughts. As I start to actually make a list I'm having trouble separating certain people. Not separating as in deciding who is above who (although that too), but in the sense that I can't help but group them together, and I can't separate them from each other or put anyone in between them on the list. It's not really a problem, I think it just makes me twitch in a finicky, anal list-making way, that I have groups of pairs instead of something that looks, to me, more balanced. Guys that I pair together like this include: Punk & Bryan Misawa & Kobashi Han & Tamura Aja Kong & Kansai Matt & Jeff Hardy Tenryu & Jumbo Santo & Casas Anyone else have guys that they can't help but group together on the list?

I don't mind "escape the cage", but I do mind "escape through the door". It's so hard to do it well because it stretches suspension of disbelief too far - there are always multiple points in the match where you think to yourself "why can't he just go out the door?" And if they don't ignore the door, then they go to it too often and it ends up as a farcical game of leapfrog as they race towards it. The worst of it is the triple threat cage match. Two guys fight each other on top of the cage, a third guy stands around trying really hard not to look like he could just walk straight out of the door while they're busy.

Yeah I'm down for a Smarkschoice/WKO100 style long rollout, but keeping reactions in a separate thread so as not to obscure the results. I'd rather not do reveals on podcasts, but that's because I'm not a podcast person.