Jimmy Redman

Yeah I was about to ask, did they specifically say that Bryan wasn't allowed in the Rumble or something? I didn't see Raw.

Unless she hatched some plot to restrain him and force herself upon him, I'm pretty sure that he still would have had some agency in the matter even if she was the one pursuing him.

Tremendous post. By now we all realize what his tastes are, and also things he tends to overrate, so you should know where your taste falls in or out of line with his. dave went through a period where every WWE PPV main event got a minimum of 4-stars. I knew I wasn't particularly into the WWE main event style during that time, so I understood the curve I was dealing with if he rated some forgettable Randy Orton vs Triple H b-show PPV match ****1/4. He digs that shit, I don't. It's no big deal. I know you were just throwing shit out there to make a point, but in the interests of nitpicking, I absolutely love the ****1/4 Orton/Hunter match. I actually get the same feeling though now about him reviewing New Japan. He's watching what he feels is a transcendentally great period of wrestling by that company and those guys, so every great match isn't just great, it's one of the greatest matches of all time. Same as during the time he'd rate every Kurt Angle TNA PPV match **** seemingly as a baseline. You just gotta roll with it. At the end of the day it's just a guy saying how much he liked a wrestling match. On the "Dave losing sleep" point above, I've always wanted to know if anyone has asked him how he feels now about rating Hogan/Andre -****.

I had the exact opposite experience with Joe/Kobashi. I came in without any preconditioned love of Kobashi, puro, or even ROH or Joe for that matter, and I came away impressed that the match was able to live up to overwhelming hype. I totally bought the dream match feel they were going for, and I love the atmosphere. It's an example of a "good smark crowd" , to put it that way, one that adds to instead of distracts from a match,

Good question actually. It's not something that I've seen explored in any depth, even though I'd wager around most areas of the internet the idea of Punk carrying lesser workers and having good TV matches would be taken for granted. The Henry match people have already mentioned. On that note, they had a match in December 2007 on ECW, which is a fun and very short proto-version of the 2012 match. In a sea of mediocre Punk vs Kane matches from the ECW era there is the one really good Punk vs Kane match: 3/6/08 on ECW. Not sure how long it goes off hand, but that falls into the 'lesser worker' category anyway. I think it's possible that Punk vs Regal in Chicago (Raw 19/1/09) was under 10 minutes, or at least not very much over it, and in any case is a good example of a more sprinty match. In a similar way to Punk/Henry, I really liked Punk vs Big Show from Raw last year, 16/7/12. I think it was the week before he turned heel and it's another really good 'Punk bumps his ass off for a monster' match. Could also be under 10 minutes. Rey at Mania 26 is a super fun sprint. It's not a great match per se, I mean I doubt I'd put it in the Top 100 WWE matches from the year, but Punk had a fun TV match with Fandango on Smackdown a couple months back (28/7/13) that I thought was Fandango's best career match up to that point, and probably still is. That is a decent shot at the hidden gem type match we're looking for. Depending on how you view Alberto as a worker, Punk vs Alberto from Survivor Series 2011 may count as far as getting something special out of a lesser worker, although personally I think Alberto is more than capable of having great 'big' matches with the right opponent and has done so with Cena, Show, Dolph, and Rey over the years. It's funny, now that I've been put on the spot I can't think of as many examples as I expected to. Punk is definitely not a guy who has a lot of easily identified carryjobs or TV sprints to point to. I'm sure more exist than I can think of right now, but they're not particularly memorable or easily found. His strengths are in the big picture stuff: main events, long TV matches, heavy storyline-based feuds.

The first Rock-Cena match was really good. I'd say that it blew the Rock-Punks out of the water, to use that term, rather than the other way around. The Rock-Punk matches were severely disappointing to me. I feel like either Rock wasn't as completely blown up in 2012 as he was in 2013, or else they just managed to hide it/work around it a lot better the first time (outside of the bearhug maybe), because I don't think Rock's cardio or lack thereof completely ruined any chance for a good match in 2012 the way it did in all three matches he had in 2013.

Meltzer didn't give that match *****. Damn, brain mis-firing there. Actually I think I was confusing it with Tana-Minoru, that was from 2012. Looking at the list, TM-Dynamite is one I have an issue with.

I actually had thoughts of posing a similar question when I saw Dave rated the 23/12 NJPW tag ****3/4 and did a spit take. Elgin/Davey is a good one. I'd also offer up the first Tana/Okada to get *****, from June 2012.

To me this may be the most accurate description of Kurt Angle I've yet seen.

I would have said that, but the OP said to discount celebrities and the untrained, of which Jenna was both.

The Zig Zag, the Sleeper and at the time was using a superkick as a finish that he even beat Orton with a couple of times. Also finished with the fameasser on lesser guys. He had abandoned the sleeper as a finish by that point, he hadn't beat anyone with it in years. Even if you want to include it, I won't argue too hard, but it's a sub and sub finishers are always escaped from. Dolph survived the STF in those matches which is a far bigger thing. The super kick and the fameasser were not and are not finishers by any reasonable standard of the term. Dolph beat Orton once with the superkick at Survivor Series (maybe once more on TV after that) and everyone was clamouring for him to take it as a finish, but...he didn't. He didn't beat anyone with it since, it was a signature move used as a near fall, same as the fameasser, which I don't think he has ever beaten anyone with ever. When they worked together Cena did kick out of all of Dolph's signature moves, and the Zig Zag. Calling his moves finishers is absurd, but I guess "all of his finishers" made for a stronger complaint.

My favorite part comes later during that feud when Carlos is put on the shelf by Ray and Victor. After the surgery, Carlos unexpectedly goes to Atlanta to ask Abdullah (who Carlos had retired a year or so before in a retirement match) for his help. I've never been able to find video of that segment, but it's among my top favorite moments in wrestling. Maybe they did a similar angle at a different time, but I've definitely seen when Carlos goes to Abby to recruit him to fight Hansen and Brody, leading to that tag match with the locker room brawl. It may be on Youtube.

John Cena is the only man who can kick out of ALL OF THE FINISHERS of a man who only has one finisher.

WHY DO YOU HATE MATWORK SO MUCH?! I don't "hate" matwork per say, although it's not something I require in my evaluation great matches or of what I consider great workers. But yeah, so the reasons stated above, that's not what I want out of Kurt. I'll watch Blue Panther work guys over on the mat all day. I want Kurt to murder people, yank off his straps, and behave like a lunatic. That's when he's at his best I'm not someone who needs matwork in a match either. And it's not like I'm asking for him to do it in all of his matches or even most of them. It's when you get to shit like an untrained Shane McMahon out-wrestling Kurt Angle on the mat, or Angle never using amateur wrestling moves at all that I find it a little too ridiculous that he's completely ignorant of his gimmick and how to work it.

The first one was short, sure, but it was still a match. It even had a commercial break as I recall. Its definitely part of the series, because the finish to that match (the cradle) was played off in 2/3 Falls, and Sami's pin on Cesaro was the whole basis for continuing the feud. I just found it confusing because I've seen more than one person call it "III", like somehow we'd all forgotten about a match. EDIT: I looked it up and it went 7:33. But you know before I re-watched it recently I had it in my mind that it was a super quick flash pin too. So I don't blame anyone. Funny how people remember things.

What are people not counting when they say III? This will be their fourth match.

Because there are other people in the room? Because we're here to talk about wrestling stuff?

I never realised the Batista Bomb was a terrible move and executed poorly. Then I read the internet.

I think he's asking a genuine question. If you don't want to take a swing at it, someone else might. Explain Devitt the in-ring worker. We just went through this same shit with Tanahashi and Angle. Curious minds want to know. I mean to me personally, like I said pages ago, to me he's a really fake, play-acting wrestler. I want to know what makes him stand out compared to even other Juniors in puro.

It's not so much Miz that buried him on NXT, but the losing streak and Cole and co. constantly burying him on commentary to an absurd degree.

I remember reading a lot of "he'll be better off back in ROH" comments around that time. And really Bryan has been "buried" since his debut. Don't forget NXT.

Yeah Devitt just isn't very good. The way I put it is that he's very much a "pretendy" pro wrestler. He just goes through the motions of hitting moves because they look cool, without any substance. As a babyface he'd run through his checklist of dropkicks and flips and stomps and what have you, and now as a heel he runs through a checklist of American Heel Tactics: mock the guy, interference, expose the turnbuckle, interference, grab a chair, interference... It's really quite dull.

Could they try make it work with iPPVs, or has ROH's failures killed the US market for them?

RVD, 18 vs Regal 19 (dark match, what a fuck up considering how hot he was a year earlier) tag vs Storm and Venis. 20 Tag Team Turmoil match 22 won money in the bank 23 won his ECW 6 man tag. So RVD is 5-0 in my book. Miz has basically the same record: WM29 - def Barrett for IC Title (preshow) WM28 - on Team Johnny that def Team Teddy WM27 - def Cena in main event WM26 - def Morrison/Truth for tag titles WM25 - lost to Colons in the dark match so it doesn't count So Miz is 3-0 on the main show, 4-0 if you count the televised preshow.

Verne killed an old man. New Jack killed someone. Are we only judging murders by age now? Adults are okay, but kids are off limit? You're missing the point. Neither Verne, Hall nor New Jack's things created a huge shitstorm in the mainstream media about the crime and the alleged culpability of the wrestling business. The disclaimer isn't for wrestling fans or kids or rational people. It's to protect the company in case some news media wants to run a story about WWE glorifying a murderer on their network, or in case some kid hurts another kid in the playground and the parents want to sue WWE because he learned the crossface from watching Benoit on the network. Stupid shit like that. That is what it's for, covering their asses legally. It's not a moral warning just because someone in the wrestling business did something horrible. There's a context.