Jimmy Redman

It was a really bad and transparent copy, yeah. I think it was their attempt to establish their annual 'Money in the Bank' style concept, but completely forgetting that the MITB concept itself (the surprise cash-in) is a device that allows for anyone who wins it to practically guarantee a title switch, thus it makes sense that everyone succeeds at it every year. Just being the X Division champion and receiving a title shot on the July PPV doesn't give anyone an inherent advantage, so it doesn't make sense to try and make it some 'guaranteed title change' thing. Sabin winning just kind of served to cheapen Aries' win, like you say, because the Aries win went from something organic and extraordinary, to a little bit more "that's just what happens when the X-D Champ cashes in". I wouldn't be against the idea of a Sabin underdog title victory in theory, but doing it in such a derivative way, and with zero momentum, was a killer.

I think those who are anti-Tanahashi would be happy to go into exhaustive detail if asked. The other guy was asked to give his side and kept dodging, is I think the thing here. It feels like the conversation is getting away from the HOF itself, I think we need a Tanahashi thread if people really want to hash this out.

The point you seem to be missing is that people understand and accept that Tanahashi is going in the WON HOF, presumably this year. A majority of WON HOF voters think he's awesome. Fine. Nobody is saying he isn't. What everyone is asking is for you, personally, as representing a majority WON HOF voter, to explain what it is you like about Tanahashi, what makes him so special that he's a no-brainer inductee halfway through his defining run. You can act like your opinion will be dismissed, and it may well be, but you may as well actually give your reasons. You're the one who came in with "Top 5 Big Match Worker" and all that stuff, so it's not like people are asking out of the blue. You offered the big statements, we just want you to explain why. As someone who doesn't hate Tanahashi, but certainly does not buy into him being a great wrestler at all, I'm always interested in hearing the arguments for him. Because otherwise, I really don't get it.

It's hidden deep down there somewhere Dave...

That surely isn't fair with DVDVR Ben around.

On this note, I actually liked the following week's Ambrose vs Kane even more. Taker and Bryan had been taken out and Kane had this great "last stand" vibe to his performance, knowing he was doomed but just going down swinging and trying to take the whole Shield with him. So to reiterate, Every Shield Match Ever needs to be on a list.

Holy shit, I just came into this thread to post the exact same thing. I love that match. I think it was really awesome at using the high-flying movez style in a really vicious and hate-filled way. Like, they're using their double-team moves and springboard moonsaults and shit, but everything comes off as super violent and nasty and it feels like a war. When they get to the end and "WE'RE GOING TO FUCKING KILL YOU!" it really feels quite unsettling and dangerous.

Team Austin vs Team Bischoff, now and forever. The match that made me a fan.

I really have to find that match. Everyone pimps it and I've never seen it. The Speed Muscle match? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2lve397lqE

Yes I liked them as a team. They were one of TNA's better teams. I assume their video game style wouldn't endear them to many people on this board, but I like that stuff in moderation, and the Guns were very good at it. Their six minute showcase match with Doi & Yoshino on Impact from 2008 was awesome and one of my favourite ever TNA matches. That and the Beer Money 2/3 Falls blowoff are my favourite matches of theirs. I don't particularly want them to reform, bur I'm someone who has zero interest in TNA or their respective careers. I'm not against the idea, I just don't care at this point.

When did that happen?

I don't think anyone is saying that it is invaluable footage. It isn't worth much. But WWE may as well throw some spare change at it, rather than not. It may serve a purpose, and they like owning footage.

Danielson and Rod Strong beating the crap out of the Young Bucks at a DDT (2009?) was pretty fun.

The buyrate that the Invasion PPV got even with the WCW dweeb crew is indication enough that people were absolutely into the idea initially.

WWE Network hours. Also footage for gap-filling for (more) bios for Sting, Angle and Jeff Hardy.

Even though he seems to have some weird women issues, Foley and Colette have been together for what, 20 years? Goldberg is an example of a guy who got out of the business relatively early and never looked back.

About the only acquisition WWE need to make TNA-wise is the tape library and Don West, who can have a spot on the website to shill the footage in Brown Bag Sales until the end of time.

My fave five for 2013: Daniel Bryan Antonio Cesaro The Shield If there was a way to vote for The Shield as a group as Most Outstanding Wrestler, I would. What a phenomenally good first year on telly.

Nothing. I'm saying you could have brought them in at the exact same time Vince brought them in in reality, which is, I assume, when their contracts expired. Everyone but Steiner and Goldberg signed with Vince by mid-2002. Since I considered getting those two earlier to fit the timeline, maybe you'd try and eat those contracts, but they wouldn't have broken the bank by that point.

Yeah, absolutely. There was definitely other problems, and to be honest I doubt that the Invasion could have ever worked. It's just funny to note in hindsight that, while the lack of big stars was such a stumbling block at the time, they ended up getting them all in soon after anyway, so they may as well have just tried to do it properly in the first place.

Think about the fact that at the beginning of the Invasion WWE refused to bring in the big name WCW stars for the angle...and then as it turned out literally all of those big name WCW stars (minus Sting) were brought in within two years of the initial Invasion: Flair: late 2001 Hogan, Nash, Hall: early 2002 Steiner: late 2002 Goldberg: post-Mania 2003 So like, with the benefit of hindsight of course, you can envision a scenario where maybe the Invasion is held off until towards the end of the year, at which point you can basically bring in WCW personnel in waves: first the ones they acquired in the beginning, and then Flair, and then the nWo, Bischoff as the next phase when they need reinforcements, and then Steiner and Goldberg, even if you have get them in a little earlier as the timing is appropriate. But if they had followed through with the separate brand idea and established the WCW as it's own entity within the company, with the ability to add guys with name value progressively as need be, you can wait to run the proper WWF vs WCW 'winner take all' war until you can get the major WCW names and really make it work. What if, what if, of course.

Yeah. The crowd being hostile in the beginning is one thing, but they responded to it by stalling for literally minutes on end. And then when they got past that bit, they STILL didn't do anything. At one point they sat in a headlock for over 2 minutes, after having done about two moves total up until that point. They completely fucked around, and then went straight to the finish, which was pretty much 'F5 - kickout - stand up - spear - three count' with zero feeling. Smark crowds weren't so unforgiving as they are now. I dont believe it was like a crowd booing Cena, or that Orton/Sheamus match that was shit on, where there's literally nothing they could do to turn the crowd around. The crowd were mad because both guys were leaving, AND because they were bored. If Brock and Goldberg had responded by upping the pace and giving them the match they should have had, they could have saved themselves from embarrassment.

I think your Cena/Umaga is off there. They never worked 2/1, the match I assume came 5th in the WON Awards was the Rumble match on 27/1.

Bryan? Is that not the whole point of the angle?

Hence the problem with using Meltzer star ratings. Honestly I think if you took an entire * off every single TNA match listed you would be closer to their actual merit. Anyway, this is good information though.