dawho5

Take a look at Fuchi/Tenryu vs. Kawada/Araya from 6/30/01 for just a great little tag match. Fuchi and Kawada add as much as the Tenryu vs. Araya matchup, which is saying a lot. Fuchi/Kawada vs. Nagata/Iizuka 12/14/00 is not as good a match, but you could make the argument that Kawada and Fuchi have to do more to make it as good as it is.

He has a match in 2006 vs. Osamu Nishimura that would be worth seeing just for variety. Worked as a MUGA match with Tajiri spots thrown in at what seemed like the right moment. It may have been in the What Are You Watching or Comments that Don't Warrant a Thread posts.

As Nagata matches and Tanahashi matches go, this was right up there with the best for sure. Nagata selling the knee when he countered the high fly flow was helpful for that, as that tends to be the point of Tanahashi's attacking the leg. I didn't like it as much as you did, but I would put it above all but two matches involving either of these two.

That's actually something I would really be interested in reading about.

I would think that the factors that go into a top 10 match list would be valued differently for most voters anyway. So if Bill didn't care for drawing in his vote it would hardly be an awful thing. I think one of the ideas of these kinds of projects is variety in the opinions presented rather than uniformity anyway. Wrestling is pretty subjective material.

If you don't mind, could I get in on some of that joshi action? I've always wanted to see more, but never know where to start.

Final two matches of the Starrcade set. Number 1 (not my number one, but theirs) is Vader vs. Flair from 1993. This match is controversial for the finish, but I fall on the side of it still being incredible. The reaction any time Flair starts coming back is so FUCKING INSANE! And Flair's determined comeback at the end is easily one of the best Flair performances I have seen. It's unlike anything I've seen from him and I love it for that as much as how great it was. The match that was listed at number two but is a clear number one for me is Magnum vs. Tully from 1985. There are very few matches that define an aspect of pro wrestling that I love that will always keep me watching wrestling. This match is one of them. It is brutal, violent and dark from the moment you even see Magnum for the intros. You know right then that you're watching something transcendent. The HATE on display for 100% of this match is something that just blows away any other match I've ever seen for heated rivalries. I could write about ten pages on this match, so I'll stop now.

I fail to see how this is overrated. There is so much emotion packed into this match. Yes, the finish was sloppy looking and maybe not exactly what you would want. But you know what, the last 7 or 8 minutes of the match (after the big Flair comeback started) were all ugly wrestling. Flair was determined to not lose and started laying in shots on Vader to even things up and going after the leg. Vader was trying desperately to find something that would put Flair away once he had him down before Flair caught up to him (which he was doing quickly). The finish didn't have to be picture perfect and I would argue that it would have been a sin if the figure four had gotten the victory. Flair was scrapping for every inch because Vader wasn't giving any of it up. Race was making things even more difficult. Race accidentally headbutting Vader and being shoved out by the ref was a perfect setup for exactly the finish that happened in my book. Flair had to take that opportunity to try to put Vader away by any means necessary while Vader was dazed and Race was incapacitated.

From 1986, the Road Warriors face the Midnight Express in a scaffold match. Not a huge fan of scaffold matches, but it's not a bad way to spend 15-20 minutes. Cornette at the end is...ouch. Sting vs. Hogan was alright, Sting should have been beating Hogan across the ring with Hogan hope spots though. The finish was...well, WCW's death was not too far off. Flair vs. Race from 1983 is absolutely amazing. Atmosphere is off the charts. Flair is so over, Race has so much heat just walking into the arena. Match is great, both getting busted open on the cage and beating each other senseless. Referee is trying to enforce the rules on both, so it's not one of those ref screwjobs on the face and it works. Race looks to have things wrapped up when Flair gets a big burst of adrenaline and hits the top rope crossbody for the 3! WOOOO!

You could look at something like Misawa/Kawada and the ever-evolving nature of their signature spots/reversals over time as a good example of how these kinds of things ought to be worked. It seemed like they would add layers to them as the years passed where it took longer for anything to really connect of note during their exchanges. Between those two, Akiyama, Kobashi when he didn't have to chop everyone and everything down, and Taue with his choke tosses and varying ways of cutting off strike exchanges (he tended to try to make them shorter due to his weaker strikes than the other 4), not many wrestlers really vary up how they counter off of signature spots. I also like watching an older American style match and seeing spots where multiple escapes of something as simple as a side headlock or a leg scissors are attempted and failed before the victim finally gets out, usually to be put in the same hold again and have to work on escaping a second time. I thought that put over basic holds as effective ways of wearing somebody down that were difficult to counter, as well as adding a sense of variety to the way things were done.

Next up is Roadies vs. Steiners at Starrcade 1989. Acceptable power/suplex spotfest, the finish is a bit lacking. 3 team ladder match where one guy from one team wins a shot at Chavo from 2000 is at times a fun spotfest with interesting stuff happening. Other parts of it are kind of a train wreck. Sting vs. Flair (main event of the 89 show) was a really fun match with a lot on the line. Flair gives Sting a lot, and I wish Sting had more than a hiptoss as a big power move 3 times. They get the desperation to win across, with Flair's cockiness once he seems to have it in the bag costing him. Well worked mostly and one of the best matches on the set so far. Piper vs. Valentine dog collar match from 1983 was holy shit kinds of awesome. My only gripe is the ref accosting Piper on the apron, which allowed Valentine to get back on top. It's a no-DQ match with plenty of chain shots before then, why is the ref getting involved now? Other than that, you can't ask for much more than Valentine and Piper beating the shit out of each other with a chain or their bare hands. Brutal, violent, awesome stuff.

I was echoing Matt's thoughts about 2002 on my journey through 2000s Japan. Getting through a lot of those NOAH main event matches was a chore. And a lot of KENTA, Marufuji, Kojima, Nagata, etc. matches....it got to feel a bit like forcing myself to watch things at times.

More Starrcade, 9 matches to go (and I disagree with a few on general principle, but we'll see). Road Warriors vs. Dusty/Sting from 88 was....not in any way great. In fact, Road Warriors as the heels is gonna drive me nuts because the only reason I like the Tully/Arn match was because the Horsemen made the Roadies look incredible. Sting and Dusty really didn't do that, but then again it wasn't their job to do anything of the sort. Sting vs. Vader from 92 was absolutely incredible. Crowd was molten for it, Sting was fired up and everything he threw at Vader looked crisp and hurtful. Briscoes vs. Youngblood/Steamboat 83 was great, loved how both teams were willing to bump big and sell everything the other did like it was big regardless of what it was. The match came off like a war between the up-and-comers and the veteran tag team champs. The double team chain at the end to put it away was nice. Dusty vs. Flair from 85 was the second or third best match on the set so far. I'd only put Sting vs. Vader or Dustin vs. Austin above it. Dusty teasing the leg work into the late figure four was really great stuff. Flair takes a tremendous beating, gets busted open by the steel guard rail, but he's still convincingly right there to take advantage of some Horsemen interference and (maybe) put things away. Finish is really great stuff. Eddie vs. dean from 97 started out incredible. Lots of good punches to set up the grappling, very gritty. Middle of the match turns into technical wrestling back and forth with less sense of struggle, but they turn things around for a really good ending to the match. Not saying the middle was wrestled sloppy or in any way badly, just that it was a departure from the beginning of the match in an unsatisfying way for me. Everything was still crisp and well-done. And there are 4 Road Warriors matches on here. Ugh.

Have to agree with Steenalized. One thing going through the 2000s taught me is that KENTA is about as overrated as a wrestler can be. Nothing changes unless he's forced to change it, and KENTA never gives up on homogenizing the match until the final bell. Not that he doesn't have interesting spots or any good qualities, but he's really lacking in any kind of storytelling skills or adaptability.

I didn't vote for this because I had this idea that rookie proving matches didn't belong on my ballot. But on rewatch, this is better than a lot of the stuff I had in my 70-100 range just for Miyamoto's performance. And that's leaving out Tenryu, Araya and Kea (who looks really good). The Miyamoto nearfall on Araya is fucking tremendous.

Because simple, yet effective is not really something that pervades modern wrestling more than likely. You need really overly complex things to impress people. Simple is just not the thing.

Wow, that seemed like it ought to give Chicago a sense of pride for the "should have" nature of the loss. They got the 3 in the ring only to have Tommy Young overturn it for the over the top DQ that he saw and the other ref didn't. Seems like the intention was there to give the Road Warriors a sense of victory anyway. Continuing on, the Rock'n'roll vs. the Midnight expresses scaffold match from 87 was pretty good. I liked how the tennis racket ended up benefitting the RnRs more than Cornette's guys in the long run. Not a huge fan of the scaffold match because I think it's really limiting in what can be done. The postscript with Morton embarrassing Cornette's big man up top was good. Flair vs. Luger from 88 was pretty good with the exception of Luger's extremely limited offense that he recycles up to 3 times during the match. Luger working over the arm was far more compelling than the third run through of the Luger power spots, or the second for that matter. Luger's selling was very good though. Cut about 10 minutes off and you have a great match. Guerrero vs. Ohtani from 95 was really a spotfest after the New Japan style opening minutes. Some of them were incredible spots, but no real thread tying them together.

This is good, but I didn't find it mind-blowing. Murakami tries his damnedest to get Nagata out of his comfort zone, but Nagata's offense is cookie cutter Nagata. I'm not saying it's no good at all, because Murakami really delivers here. But Nagata could have done a little more than what he did leading up to the finish. Definitely right up there with the best Nagata matches I've seen. Still not up to the Taue match or the Tanahashi match from 07 for me.

I've seen that 3 way ladder match from the last disc before. I have a hard time believing it tops most of what is on disc 2. I mean, Sting vs. Vader is coming up on disc 2.

This time it's 1993 and Austin is facing Dustin Rhodes in a 2/3 falls match. Really liked the work by both and how everything played out in a way that catches you off-guard watching it for the first time. Just when you think Dustin has Austin, he's foiled in a way that leaves you thinking he deserves better. Great work and great booking. Next up is Road Warriors vs. Arn/Tully from 1987. Man is the crowd rabid for the Road Warriors and they get a great extended shine. Arn/Tully build heat on Hawk, but not for long enough if you ask me. Finish works for everybody, Road Warriors get a sense of triumph and the Horsemen get to keep their belts. Good booking, match could have used about 5-7 more minutes for a better heat/finish. Rey vs. Liger from 96 started out great, with Liger understanding his role perfectly and laying in an awesome heel beatdown on Rey. Crowd starts coming around when Rey gets his big comeback spots, but the Misawa-esque (no elbows though) extended comeback is all kinds of spotty. Liger gets a little more spotty as the match progresses as well. I really preferred him as the base with Rey getting his hope spots to the back and forth spotty stuff. Honestly, I thought the Austin/Rhodes match was the best of the 3 despite being ranked lowest.

More Best of Starrcade. Hogan vs. Piper was a watchable brawl with a (wait what?) clean win for Piper over Hogan. I had forgotten about that part completely. Nash vs. Goldberg was better than Piper vs. Hogan up until the interference/taser stuff. Then came the first Battlebowl. Which was supposedly better than both, but I have to say it was pretty crappy even as battle royales go. Didn't seem like anybody really knew what was going on with the double ring setup or eliminations for a while. Awful.

Didn't Loss have a section of his e-book dedicated to the Snowman and his quest for acceptance in the racist Memphis promotion that was more than a little bit of a shoot on both sides?

Yoshinari Ogawa after watching his big matches from late 90s All Japan and NOAH in the 2000s was something of a surprise discovery for me. Never thought much of him, but the guy is a really great wrestler when he wrestles heavyweights and has to empty his bag of tricks just to survive.

Started watching the WWE Best of Starrcade DVD. Muta vs. Sting from 89 was pretty good, they started with the feeling out process that went into bursts of offense for both. They kicked it into gear pretty quick, but it made sense for a 15 minute time limit. Muta goes to the top one too many times and takes a dropkick while he's up there (good height by Sting) leading to a superplex for the win. Loved how simple moves were presented as dangerous and legitimate pinfall attempts. Windham/Pillman vs. Steamboat/Douglas from 92 was pretty good. I liked the extended shine on Windham by the pissed off faces a lot. Windham and Pillman beating up Douglas was the highlight of the match for me, good hope spots (including a literal revenge spot for Steamer), good cutoffs, ended exactly where it ought to. Windham cutting off Steamboat after the hot tag was good, because I think Steamboat as a hot tag was where he was weakest offensively. Douglas didn't have near enough time to recover before he was chomping at the bit to get back in though. The finish was too quick, especially for Pillman (the heel who had taken the least amount of damage) taking the fall. Either get the fall on Windham because he took a good amount of damage as the match progressed or cut out the Steamer heat and go to a few quick tags between the faces to do some damage to Pillman. Edit: Two random things that caught my attention in the Muta/Sting match I forgot to mention. Muta busting out a cattle mutilation in 1989 was kinda cool. And when he hit his running elbow, Muta took a moment to deal with the fact that he got no crowd reaction at all.

That counting is the ref "keeping control of the match". If somebody is doing something illegal, the ref gives them up to a 5 count to stop. I'll agree that after a certain amount of infractions, I think you would just ditch the 5 count and DQ the guy for continually breaking the rules despite warnings. Also, I've seen the ref use the 5 count like that in no-DQ matches, which makes no sense at all. He can count forever, there's no way he's gonna DQ whoever is doing the illegal thing, because he CAN'T.